Essentially I suspect that what I think about this isn't that far from Troll, when it comes to how I'd like to see things happen, though I'm sure I might have a very different set of ways of getting there, and a different set of explanations for how we got where we are.

But though people putting themselves first is a part of it,it's a lot more complicated than just that. There are reasons why some people act that way and others don't, and why more people act that way in some places and times than in other places and times. Understanding those is more important than just condemning - or praising for that matter.

The unlamented John Major, when he was Prime Minister, came up with a soundbite about it being necessary to "understand less and to condemn more" (or was it to "condemn more and understand less" - same difference).

That struck me at the time as one of the most stupid thing any politician had ever said. Fortunately I wasn't alone in seeing it that way.

As for MAV, I don't want to harp on about it. But there's a saying that in any conflict or disagreement you find there is someone on your own side whom you really wish was on the other side. Well, I get a feeling that, in this case, it's the other way round.

I really think that the last thing I would like to see is someone win MAV around to the kind of ideas I might have. He's doing a great job where he is in convincing people that there are certain ways of thinking that are not good ways of thinking.