Mr Shaw said he didn't want to create a new thread, partly because he felt it would be "doomed to spasms of defensive behaviour and horrible fights". Since the discussions in the Henry VIII thread have remained perfectly civil, I see no reason why this shouldn't also (if you please, Dear Reader! ;-) ). And Steve also said he would be happy to discuss Pius XI & XII. But not in that thread. Therefore, this! :-)

I have to quote Steve a couple of times from the other thread to provide a starting point for this. I should also point out that I am germanic pagan myself, so have no sympathy whatsoever for christianity, let alone popes, on the whole. Nevertheless!

Steve, from the other thread, "Pius XII colluded with a fascist regime (as did his predecessor) and silently oversaw the removal of hundreds of Jews from under his nose in Vatican City to death camps. He also oversaw the expediting of escape routes to South America at the end of the war for Nazi war criminals, and let's not mention the baleful role of the Church in the Spanish Civil War. Oddly, these guys seem to be first in line for sainthood..."

"There's also the murky question of anti-semitism in the Church and its part leading to the events of the mid-20th century. This culminated in Pius XII putting the interests of the Vatican before the lives of millions of Jews. He vacillated for years in the face of fascism in Italy and of the Nazis before and during the war."

In defence of XI, I pointed out that "he wrote several protests against the Nazis, from 1933 onward, and turned against Mussolini when he started adopting Nazi racial policies in 1938." He also wrote strongly against the racial policies of the Nazis. "Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community ? however necessary and honourable be their function in worldly things ? whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds." was part of an encyclical that was not announced in advance, in order to help it be smuggled into Germany so that it could be read from pulpits. Catholicism was another victim of persecution under the Nazis, clergy & congregation too. In a later address he wrote "Mark well that in the Catholic Mass, Abraham is our Patriarch and forefather. Anti-Semitism is incompatible with the lofty thought which that fact expresses. It is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we [Christians] are all Semites."

So where is the evidence of XI colluding with fascism?

As for XII, he was a pre-war critic of the Nazis, and maintained links with the German Resistance throughout the war. And was in a much worse position than XI. As I said in the other thread, "Spiritual authority is one thing, but it's not much of a weapon when the other side has weapons & no respect for said spiritual authority! Stuck inside one fascist state with another even bigger & nastier fascist state just over the border that's been persecuting your clergy & congregation for years... What do you do?" He apparently instructed local churches across Europe to provide discreet aid to Jews, and continued to speak out as best he could against racial persecution. Wiki reckons that he saved 80% of Roman Jews from deportation.

I'm well aware that his reputation is somewhat equivocal, but it seems to me he didn't merely have a weak hand of cards to play; he had no hand at all. As for the anti-Semitism of the church, anti-Semitism was rife across all strands of European culture before 1945. France, for example, did its best to make itself a secular state from the Revolution onwards (persecuting the RC church in the process), but always had a significant anti-Semitic streak (e.g. the Dreyfus affair). To point a finger at the RC church specifically seems somewhat unfair. Why should the Vatican, or any other significant organisation, have been immune? Such attitudes were not, then, ridiculous, as they are today.

So, Steve (& anyone else who cares to join in), on what grounds do you hold an opinion of XI or XII, or claim that the Vatican was anti-Semitic after WWI?