The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #163122   Message #3888395
Posted By: robomatic
13-Nov-17 - 03:45 PM
Thread Name: BS: Pius & more Pius...
Subject: RE: BS: Pius & more Pius...
Raedwulf, an admirable OP (Original Post) in which you lay out a position and some guidance of what you want from the thread.

I don't know enough detailed history of what is a complex issue. I grew up in a very Catholic part of the world (Boston area) which is yet quite particular: The Catholics were primarily Irish and Italian, who are co-religionists who argue, fight, make horrible ethnic jokes about each other, yet share a religious calendar and frequently inter-marry. And they are distinct from the Irish in Ireland, the Italians in Italy, etc. etc. Catholicism is BIG.
And I'm not Catholic, I'm a witness OF Catholics.

I regard Pope John XXIII as one of the main influencers of the 20th Century, and from my point of view, quite positive. The Catholic Church of today is not the Catholic Church of yesteryear, which IMO is also pretty positive.

As for Pius, he doesn't seem to have been a prime mover for The Holocaust, nor one against it. And the Catholic hierarchy he dealt with was varied and deep. I've read that many in the Nazi leadership were able to flee Europe, mostly for South America, helped by Catholic documentation. Do I know this for historical fact? No. So I don't really concentrate on it.

I think when large, ancient institutions show they are capable of change, this should be acknowledged and dealt with.

Hope I didn't take the thread too far afield.