Meanwhile, back at my original interjection. I do feel that both Jim Carroll and Steve Gardham have taken up entrenched positions. Neither is really listening to what the other says, both argue against things the other haven't said and both claim that academic experts agree with what they say on the grounds that anyone who disagrees is clearly wrong. Jim genuinely doesn't seem to realise how insulting he comes over nor Steve how patronising. (Thanks for the apology, Steve, but I doubt if you really remember the specific incident.)

Jim responded "Are you people now hell bent on closing this thread by turning it into a kicking match?" I'm not sure who "you people" are that I am now a member of. My point was that the two of you had already turned it into a kicking match.

There is a constructive and interesting debate to be had here. This isn't it.