Hi, Jackaroodave. Just as Greg can't make points in a debate by simply averring that what he says is the truth. Here's his standard explanation for why he can't be bothered to provide facts: WELL DOCUMENTED AND EASILY ACCESSIBLE EXAMPLES, some of which have already been ceted in this thread. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself I can;t be arsed to take the time to try to educate you. In adition, its not "my" opinion; its a widely held majority opinion.

Now, I don't want you to go down that same purple path, so let me tell you that there is a right way and a wrong way to use links. If all you do is post a link, your link will be totally disregarded by most people. I find it most ludicrous when people try to start a thread with only a link, no explanation. Yes, there will be some people who will join in and carry on quite a conversation without actually saying anything - but the vast majority of people will simply pass the whole thing by.

If you post a link, post an explanation with it - either an excerpt from the linked material, or better yet a summary in your own words. Links should be used to support what you have to say, not to provide the essence of your point of view.

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I suppose what makes me nervous about born-again Christians, is their extreme and simplistic view of the total depravity of human nature, and their belief that they can be saved simply by expressing a belief in Jesus. They base all this on one verse from the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus, John 3:16. And from that, the most simplistic of the born-agains conclude that they who have stated this belief are saved, and all others are damned.

In other words, if you say you believe the right thing (if you have the correct ideology), you're OK. Everybody else is damned. That's more-or-less the converse of the same thing my friends the born-again atheists are saying - all those evil people believe in things that are incorrect, so they are worthy of condemnation.

Steve Shaw says: I should think that a bloke who predicates his life on the unsupportable belief in a superior being who can exist only by breaking every law of nature and for whose existence there is not a single scrap of evidence, and who exacerbates that stance by claiming that his God is the one and only true God, and who bitterly attacks anyone who dares to ask penetrating questions or express scepticism about that belief, represents the epitome of the perfect absolutist.

Steve's really good at argumentum ad absurdum,. He redefines and oversimplifies his opponent's position in ridiculous and inaccurate terms, and then condemns the opponent for what he claims the opponent is saying. Greg takes this a step further and jumps right to the condemnation, without making any attempt to support his conclusions. And the end point for both Greg and Steve, is that they gotta condemn somebody. The extremists among the born-again Christians have the same end: they gotta condemn somebody.

One other thing these "born again" people have in common: they insist that there is only one possible correct answer to any given question. In their absolutist world, there is no room for doubt or for a variety of valid perspectives - and they cannot possibly respect anyone who does not possess the one, right answer.

The born-agains try to make their condemnations credible by saying that God said what they say is so, so it must be true. I give Steve and Greg credit for saying things on their own authority, but it still ends up the same: they gotta condemn somebody.

I'll admit it is quite inconvenient and time-consuming to have to rely on facts to carry on a discussion, but that's the only thing that works. You can't read just the last three pages and say you've read a book.

-Joe-