Generally speaking, the mods don't patrol these threads and I don't bloody blame them. pfr, you are a valiant fellow and quite likely the finest and most personable poster here, but I'm afraid that you are unintentionally feeding and indulging two, or three when Bruce wades in, of the worst trolls here and they just LOVE sparring with you. Raggytash, Dave and I decided a couple of weeks ago to cease engagement with Keith and just talk past him. He won't dictate what we discuss here but we don't directly address any of the stupid points and childish challenges he tries to make. Bobad is as bad if not worse and I'm making this a public appeal that we should simply not engage him. The moderators won't sack these two and one of them is bobad's bosom-buddy, so our best bet is to utterly ignore them from now on. They are no more than shallow wind-up merchants and extremely few people bar us suckers ever read their tripe, so let's not let any of it get to us. And get on board here, Jim. We can make this place work a lot better if we really try. Teribus and akenaton have gone. Bobad, Keith and Bruce have their admirers among the mods and will last forever (I can prove it!), which is why they feel that they are invulnerable even when they troll, but that doesn't mean we can let them carry on having the influence they simply don't deserve to have. Ignore, sweeten, onwards and upwards! :-)