Thanks for your contribution Jim.

I think I am coming to a view that I don't mind what definition people use so long as they accept it isn't the only one.


The MacColl example was an example of my own confused ideas on the subject. There will be many like me who are unaware that MacColl denied being a writer of folk songs.

In a general philosophical sense, might I suggest that the argument about defining something that no longer exists begs a question about what did exist, for how long, and whether it was in any meaningful sense 'the same' thing at all points during its existence. To put this another way, would the singers singing a song at all points along its theoretical long existence have said the same sorts of things about it?

As it happens, I am sure that historians do and continue to argue about the nature and significance of Medieval Hymns. That is human nature!

I will disagree with you about the places for singing disappearing, unless you qualify it. I had a great uncle who was a pub pianist (though non-musically-literate), one of those who played by ear in a pub for people to have a sing-song. This is in England, a largely Victorian pit village as it happens. Also regarding pubs:in my own local in the 80s, one front room had singers in on a Friday night: they sang World War 2 songs mostly, at least that was how I generally thought about it: I cannot list all the songs.   

I am quite happy for The Outlandish Knight and The Coal-owner and the Pitman's Wife to be named differently from eachother. They seem to reflect quite different social practices. However, the origins of both seem obscure (judging from a quick google search), and in the case of the latter, potentially unreliable. So on an 'origin' basis, I'm not sure we get much further.

And on the Red Flag: I suspect that the song 'The People's Flag is Deepest Pink (It's not so red as people think) may in fact demonstrate that whatever its origins it went some way towards becoming a 'folk song' according to Roud's definition, if not all the way, as it would need to have been passed on again to fit with it. I heard this version sung during a battle against pit closures, but cannot remember any more of it.

I don't think that Roud is claiming that anything sung by 'ordinary people' automatically and immediately becomes folk. He speaks of a 'process'. I am not saying you take a different view of Roud's definition, just trying to be clear about what it is.


Thanks for your contributions. Interesting debate.

Tzu