I also took 'bunch of scruffs' as light-hearted. Given the present weather, 'sweaty scruffs' might have been closer to the truth! Or is that just me - the sweaty bit?

It has been suggested that Jim Carroll should write a book, and for me the anecdotes he gave in that post are worth recording and could be in it. For they seem important to me. Though a publisher might not be happy about the tone being quite so scathing. Sorry to speak about you in the 3rd person Jim.

As I have said before, I came to Lloyd's book recently, about five years ago, so I did not have the experience of being inspired by it that many posters here have described. But I can see that some of the ways I think about 'folk' music are influenced by the post-war left 'revival' that the book was part of.

So I have thought a couple of times while involved on this thread that it is useful to have the two books together. I don't think Roud 'replaces' Lloyd. If the publishers wanted us to think that it did, it won't wash. Roud is plainly attempting something different.

Leaving the definitional disagreements to one side for one moment (partly because I cannot being to answer Jim's question on this) I am honestly interested in the information Roud provides about the whole range of songs that were actually sung by ordinary people through the centuries he covers.

I'm not sure how we should categorise the century-plus body of work mentioned by Jim (8th July 4.06 and elsewhere), but if a person wants to know more about that work, Roud is as good a place as any to start.

Also, writing as he does later than Lloyd, Roud brings the story of that work up to date. It's sort of like a 'literature review', I have thought. And his references are undoubtedly better than Lloyd's, so you get a good idea where you can go for more on a topic or by a writer.

For examples of Roud bringing things up to date

1 He lists p175 people who have produced academic work (eg Gammon, Atkinson, Boyes, Harker)

2 He lists p176 non academic people who have continued to collect material and to work in the field (eg Palmer, Gardam,Purslow, Davis, Carrol, Mackenzie, Howson, Stubbs).

NB Currently I'm Sunday morning scruffy, which is ... well .. you really don't want to know.