"Nobody hes conceded one inch that the old singers might have made the songs yet have offered no explanation why they didn't"

I am quite happy that old singers might have made the songs.

But I also think that people singing songs *might* not always be clear about the origins of those songs. An example may be some friends of Irish origin who sometimes sing The Mountains of Mourne and I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen because their parents, who were born in Ireland, sang these songs. They regard them both as Irish. And given the context in which they were passed on, perhaps they were.

The first was written by somebody from an Anglo-Irish landlord family called Percy French. His family appears to have bought land from the Trustees of Irish Forfeitures. According to wiki he also wrote Abdul, Abulbul Amir.

The second was written, again according to wiki, by Thomas P. Westendorf in 1875. (The music is loosely based on Felix Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto in E Flat Minor Opus 64 Second Movement).

In spite of its German-American origins, it is widely mistaken to be an Irish ballad. ... It's in the form of an "answer" to a popular ballad of the time, "Barney, Take Me Home Again," composed by Westendorf’s close friend, George W. Brown, writing under the nom de plume of George W. Persley.

I found out about these origins accidentally while searching for chords to accompany the songs.

I have to disagree with Jim's final comment on 'music making'. These occasions were not poetry recitals or storytelling demonstrations. For me, the clue is in the word 'song'.

It is clear to me that music can and does express ideas and experiences, though how we interpret its messages will be culturally determined, and vary through time. I guess that how much people care about which tune they are singing will change over time. As Roud and Bishop point out somewhere, certain sorts of tune became associated with certain sorts of topic over time.


If you make up a song, it has to fit to some extent to a new tune or you have to improvise a tune for it. And if you are singing something based loosely on Mendelsshon, then the music gives a clue about dating.

I cannot help also wondering whether, if a friend with a clear interest in song lyrics enjoys hearing lots of lyrics, this is what you will offer them. If that friend's interest had been in tunes, you might offer something else. Just wondering.

Some of the early collectors were rather more interested in music and tunes than in words. Whereas, as I understand it, Child had little or no interest in words, being an expert in philology and medieval English literature, including Chaucer. I think Sharp may be an example of a collector interested in the music. There are some interesting passages in *Roud's book* about the relationship between words and music as discovered by some song collectors. For example, some tradition bearers, it seems, simply could not hum the tune, they had to sing the song. Some had to be moving about doing various jobs before they could/would produce the words.

Howard's point about early singers being isolated within their communities is interesting, but I guess we don't know. My thought is that in Medieval England (I am English, so I focus on that) there was a feudal system and 'peasants' were tied to their feudal lord, who might have been one of the powerful monastaries which owned and managed the farming of much of the land. I'm guessing that in the latter case they might have had some religious music around them. I'm guessing that servants in the great halls would have heard whatever music went on at banquets. They'd move about a bit if participating in some power struggle or other, I guess.

Also, the terms 'ploughboy' and 'milkmaid' seem to me somewhat romantic. I would be thinking a song with these characters in might be post-medieval or at best very late medieval (?). I imagine it took a strong man, rather than a boy, to handle a medieval plough, and ploughing was just one of many tasks to be done over the year. Not saying Howard is romanticising, just aware of how words conjure up images which may muddy our thinking.


This, just maybe, is one area where, say, an academic with an interest in history can clarify matters, by sharing with us what is known about social and economic history.