well i can understand BWM - there are times when the level of debate takes a nosedive.

we could all help by depersonalising the debate.

make our points without saying - you're saying that because you're a racist/ fascist/homophobe/ tory or labour twit/etc.

i think this is an interesting subject.

My sister made me understand something years ago. We were talking about newspapers - and she said to the Mirror was always on the side of working class people, and was far more 'on message' than other supposedly leftish papers like The Guardian. But the thing was, by the nature of the beast - its competitor was The Sun - so it had the nudie pics and the celeb chit chat. Nevertheless it voiced opinions, and saw things from a more consistently working class position than other newspapers.

I think the same obtains with politicians. The tories are a write-off. The bottom line is always tax cuts for the rich - because that's what they believe is the basis of a sound economy.

Now do you want a Labour politician who understands and embraces the nature of the task, or this continuing epic of self righteousness and utter disinterest in winning the 43 marginal seats that will mean care for the poorest and most vulnerable in our society.