Subject: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:27 AM

There is already a Billion dollar monument in Washington DC to our defeat. The National Airport is closed indefitetly.
Rather than immediately equip flights with any viable defense (that could defeat a boxcutter)it is virtually business as usual at 40% flight reductions, 100,000 layoffs and bankruptcies. There is already a defiling/defeat of our Constitution. It took Walter Cronkite this morning to explain that the Bush administration policy of disallowing any journalist or civilian cameras access to "the war" as well as the rules for search and seizure suspended without so much as a review board.
We have declared war on John Doe. The Supream Court selected President said "we will destroy all evil in the world, Were gonna git those terrist folks, huntem,smokem,bringem ta justice dead or alive...in our crusade", and many other stammering utterences so childish as to qualify as a new low in history. In the use/misuse of the english language we seem to be most forgiving.
It is forcast our strong suit will be staying power of 15 or more years at war. As the WTC is now referred to with 3 or more adjectives , by the time a cessation of hostilities is ever achieved, there will be no adjectives for the WTC since it will be overshadowed my many worse events.
America has already lost because of the lost freedom that was so anxiously surrendered due to the "horrible senseless trajedy" at the WTC.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: kendall - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:44 AM

No, we havn't lost, yet, the Sears tower still stands, the White House is unscathed, the statue of Paul Bunyon in Bangor Maine is still there.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:50 AM

Donuel:
This is a stupid thing to say and do.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:00 AM

Now, now Amos. It's not nice to tell someone they've done something stupid.
Unless you're a talking to some one who doesn't agree with you who happens to be a little right of center.
They're fair game.
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:06 AM

Also remember Amos, never try to teach a pig to sing.
It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: flattop - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:09 AM

Use your brain Donuel. Take your time. Read a bit of history. Look at how much of America that hasn't been crippled. People, including leaders will adjust from day to day.
Remember what what's-his-name said to John Travolta, "When we were good we were never as good as they thought we were. When we bad we were never as bad as they thought we were." Walter Concrete won't have the last word. One of us will argue. Given margins of errors and margins of cheating on both sides, Bush is as legitimate as the other guy and he might be better in a crisis. Who knows?


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Clancy - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:25 AM

We haven't even started. The only way we can lose the war against terrorism is by betraying our own principles of decency, fairness and justice. Someone has been watching too much talk show TV over the last week...
Bush is our President. I didn't vote for him, but I'm not asking for a recount now, Donuel. We don't need to bomb Afganistan into the stone age...they're already there, and anyone who could fly, drive, run, limp or crawl has already abandoned the Taliban's bankrupt regime.

There's an overreaction that comes with the sudden realization that, hey, maybe we SHOULD have paid attention to Gary Hart and the others on the Commission that studied and reported on terrorism. It said we would face this much and worse...and it did so a few months ago.

Thank God for Americans, Donuel...we don't give up so easily. I'm not saying you're chicken, but you sure are demonstrating some "hen-house ways!"


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Skeptic - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:26 AM

We are not at war. Maybe after Bush's speech tonight we will be, if Congress so votes. Not sure who we would declare war on but we'll see.
As I understand it, under State of Emergency declarations, the President has far more powers to temporally suspend things (already in Law). If War is declared by Congress, they have to start authorizing things like keeping the press out (deja vu: Desert Storm), suspending habeas corpus and so on.

BTW, the conspiracy sights are having a field day as their scenario for the powers that be getting rid of the Constitution, suspending elections and so on has always been for a permanant state of emergency to be declared.

But we should be troubled by the press thing. Censoring after the fact (as was done in WWII) is one thing. This is another and is a little ominous.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:30 AM

YOU have already lost, Donuel, and anyone else who thinks like that. Give up at the first sign of trouble? Concede defeat and run away like scared rabits? Presuming you are in the US, what happened to the spirit that fought off the British oppression? What happened to the power that led the world? I guess it still lingers on in the millions upon millions of Americans who will not accept defeat at the hands of a bully.
The British did not accept it at Dunkirk or during the Blitz - and that spirit helped us hold out until allies came to our aid. Don't give up like that. Stick it out, everyone is already with you.

I am NOT advocating violence or retaliation btw - just the opposite. It is a strong man indeed who will not accept defeat from either his enemies or his own emotions!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:48 AM

Wasn't Walter Cronkite the guy who thought that the Tet offensive was a stunning strategic victory for the North Vietnamese?

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Gimli - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:04 AM

"Faithless is he who leaves the path when at its darkest"

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:04 AM

To quote a famous movie:
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No! It's not over till we say it's over!"

[yes I know it was not the Germans but if you know the movie, you'll understand ;-) ]


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM

Donuel.....I'm not sure if you are scared, confused, or a complete flake. I'll have to figure it's the former which is certainly natural in this time. You posted the article on the other thread and I think we have two different ways of seeing it. Whatever you are, I'll assume you are not a troll as you have been around awhile and yet also don't respond much after posting controversial threads.
I too worry about the overall direction that is being taken, but at the same time I am heartened that time keeps passing without a massive retaliation. Whatever reservations I may have about Dubya, I also believe that he is "covered" by many intelligent advisors in his cabinet and Congress. I am not so naive as to think that we will do ALL the things I'd like to see and remain free of bloodshed.......it won't happen. I can only hope though that most of what we do will result in diminishing of the NEED the terrorists feel to attack innocents.

I see great hope in the world reaction and the world involvement in this action. I also see that perhaps we will have the sense to come down on our own home-grown terrorists. We are also making noises that we will now and finally get serious about not just rooting out the terrorists, but getting to the root causes of their actions.

What I also believe is that the people of the world and this country have the stamina and the desire to end this type of "warfare." Look to the heartland of this country and you see folks looking for an end to terrorism and not anxious to go into any kind of false war. They are willing to support Bush in his efforts to bring Bin Laden to justice and to stamp out the organization, but they fear for their children and the world they inherit. Hence, they are willing to do whatever it takes to end this. They are also prepared for a long term gain over short term vengeance. It is in this reaction which I see growing across the country, even among the hawks, that I take the most encouragement. Many of these same people were at first ready to blow the hell out of anything in the Middle East, but are now moving over to a more long term stance. Not all.....but many......

BTW, if you DID post this as a troll.........Fuck off, ya' got me. Now go have a Coke and a Smile and Shut the Fuck Up!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM

what's so funny bout peace love and understanding?
The thing is, and I mentioned this elsewhere, we have to find ways to communicate with people who don't understand things like peace love and understanding. They demand to be heard, but they don't want anyone to listen. It's like they want to scream just to hear themselves scream.

So how DO you teach the pig to sing?

I am glad we have not rushed headlong into military retaliation, and I for one do not want to see Any At All! I don't. BUT I am also aware that force may be necessary if all other options are exhausted. I'm praying for lots of Plan B's.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:03 PM

KimC, was that movie Stripes with Harold Ramis and whathisname?

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:07 PM

The movie was "Animal House" with the line being delivered by John Belushi. Spaw

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM

Spaw, you get a Golden Fart award for today. ;-)

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Little Hawk - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:55 PM

There are probably some things that are even more difficult than teaching a pig to sing. Ask Buddha or Jesus or any other enlightened soul about that, and they could tell you some interesting tales...
- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Shenandoah - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM

Donuel has it pretty dead on, actually.
Some of you might want to stop your jingo dancing for long enough to actually read the 4th Amendment.

And recognize that the agencies which make up the secret US government, known to the citizenry of the US as "the intelligence community" (ie the CIA, National Security Agency, and the FBI) are not a branch of government, nor are they accountable to the citizenry of this country in any way.

The government doesn't need to suspend the Constitution or elections to destroy our democratic freedoms. Judging by people's responses here, most of you don't even know what our constitutionally protected civil rights are. If you think the government is going to protect democratic rights in this country, you are seriously deluded. Seriously deluded.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:25 PM

Indeed it is an impudent thing to say and was done after a long day of news monitoring. To be true to myself and honor the serios posts here I will simply add a quote that suggests why I believe we have lost before we begin.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction...
The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the darkness... of annihilation."

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:26 PM

I have heard that hornpipe before, Shennendoah--that because of the covert actions of the government, we should all be upset because we have no civil rights, and in fact, we never had any. You are both just looking for a rabble to rouse--hopefully it won't happen--

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:27 PM

The last time that I checked, the FBI and the CIA have been held accountable for various acts (ever heard of the freedom of information act). As a specific example, please note that the CIA was prohibited from dealing with many of the "unsavory" characters that they had used in the past. There have also been a number of Senate hearings over mismanagement and misconduct by the FBI. Of course, you could argue that these are well orchestrated smoke-screens that hide the hidden agenda by Big Brother to enslave us. If you buy into that, you might be better off hiding out in the woods with the brainiacs who think that the Federal Income Tax is Facism since it is not specifically mentioned in the original constitution.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Frank - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM

I think the point is here that we may have lost the Gulf War. (The sins of the father visited on the son?) We ignored the plight of the poor arabs while we were defending oil wells for our own use. The poor arabs became Mujehedeem and joined the fanatical Taliban who now control Afghanistan and have undue influence in Pakhastan.
Now that we see that we just can't ignore the needs of the poor people of the world, or ignore their grievances, we can learn from this lesson and proceed with understanding and compassion.

Also, the knowledge that when poor people are not listened to they can easilly be exploited by reprehensible and opportunistic fanatatics and facists such as bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and the callous leaders of the Sudan.

If we learn this lesson, we can win the war over ignorance and unmindful detachment from the poor countries and peoples of the world. We can begin to explain ourselves as a nation through our humanitarian deeds.We are still the recipient of appx. 75% of the world's gross national production.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM

To help the world get out of this one somewhat intact we will have to use our head ,heart and hands.
Head: An international tribunal to investigate and indict specific terrorists.

Heart: Align ourselves with the mocerate Islmaic cleriks of influence that can bring the message of terrorism as the antithisis to Islam.

Hands: and teeth of the military will be required to enforce the indictments.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:39 PM

Donuel: I didn't hear the Walter Cronkite quote but if you think the freedom of speech is going to be stifled by the government, I think you are incorrect. There is round-the-clock coverage of events on many of the cable networks, particularly Fox News Network and CNN.
If, and when, there is a military response I'm sure we will hear about it. On the other hand if what you are seeking is full disclosure of military plans prior to any action to be taken, you are going to be sorely disappointed.

This is not a criminal action, it is an act of war, and wartime restrictions on information is going to be the rule.

As someone said before, we are not defeated ...we haven't even started yet.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM

Donuel:
The three point plan you itemize is excellent, in theory, as long as we are willing to consider the use of multi-kiloton explsives and the massascre of 5000 humans who were non-combatants and innocent of known offense as a big crime.

Justice is a process used to channel and remdiate crime.

War is a process used to stop destructive acts by a declared enemy who has by action or formal word revealed a destructive intention toward the state declaring war.

Ben laden, in his fatwah has declared that it is the duty of good Muslims to rise up and kill Americans and take their money, according to the bit posted here recently. In addition he announced a major strike against the United States of "unprecedented force" a few weeks ago, but whe one occurred he insisted it wasn't him!!

Whether it was him directly or not there are good reasons for believing he was involved, based on the known connections of known participants. Subject to later information, of course.

Hopw many or how much crime do you think it takes from one organized group before "war" becomes an appropriate term?

If it is warm your scenario still holds, with one exception. Leave the tribunal out of it and the military force enforces the edicts of the best intelligence we can bring to bear.

A lot of the same people will--one way or another--get rubbed out of their current identities.

The military process will prbably cost less, be faster, and be more of an incentive against similar future recurrence, I think.

Always willing to be wrong.

A.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM

If we put DougR, Donuel, and Amos, along with X-Ed(if he doesn't return to active status) together in a room, we would probably have the highest rated show on CNBC--all sides presented(sometimes in the same post!) with enough vinnigar to keep it interesting!!

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:30 PM

Whatever the post.....Let me say that I'm glad Donuel is coming back and discussing things here and on other threads. While the topics are controversial and we will all not agree, at least he has stated his positions and proved himself not a troll.
Donuel....Thanks for your posts, no matter if we agree or not.

Spaw