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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:34 PM

Kim, the point is that you teach a pig to sing. And you can't change some people's minds.
Frank, there are poor people in ALL the Arab states, even those who have oil. There is a big gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots" but it is the responsibility of those countries governments to address those issues. If we interfere then we are meddling with the affairs of another nation. And thats wrong.
It was wrong when we did it in Chile, it was wrong in Nicaragua and El Salvador AND IT'S WRONG HERE TOO>.
Afghanistan has no oil. The Mujahadeen are for the most part, Afghan tribesmen. bin Laden brought in what he called "Afghan Arabs" to help fight the Russians. These were not poor men but men who already had some experience in warfare and/or terrorism.
When the Russians left,the country erupted into civil war with one group of Mujahadeen fighting another. The Tailban -mostly Pashtuns from the south- came out on top.
The rest of the country is in ruins and the tribes who lost out now skulk and starve in the mountains or, in the north, conduct guerrilla warfare.
A couple of months ago, the US sent $42 million in aid -mostly food and medicines- to Afghanistan but it is unlikely that the aid ever reached anyone but Talliban supporters.
I am not sure which poor people we are ignoring, but their own governments can't deny them the aid we send and then blame us.
Unless you want us to be the cops of the world.
BTW, yes, we are the reciepient of 75% of the worlds GNP. We make most of it.
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: kendall - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM

Yeah, what spaw said.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:49 PM

Sorry. The Talliban are Pathans. The language they speak is Pashtun or Pushtu.
I am covered with rue.
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:53 PM

I tried posting on Maestronet, like frog in a small pond, but members are mostly interested in dicussing the psalm Bush mentioned or yelling that we the cowardly public have no need to know and should therefor be silent.
This forum has such a multitude of intelligent people I am but an ameoba in a large lake.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Sourdough - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:55 PM

Donuel;
One of the things that I think gets overlooked by not just yourself but most other people in a discussion such as this one is that somewhere there are people, cabinet officers, legislators, national security advisors, economists, CEO's, security people and the like who have to make decisions about what to do - right now. They have to protect lives and property in an immediate sense.

Of course, I agree that we must think clearly and act decisively to change the context that produces terrorists and the people who are willing to shelter them, however there are some people whom we expect to make decisions about what to do this afternoon, tomorrow and next week to protect us and our families. Unfortunately this kind of pressure in an emergency has led to major injustices, especially the rounding up of Japanese on the West Coast and Axis nationals on the East Coast following the US entry into WW II. However, our system was such their injustices were finally recognized and their tribulations apologized for. The bravery of their sons became appreciated to the extent that in the 1960 there was a feature film about the Japanes-Americans fighting who unit in the US Army was one of the most decorated in the entire war. An open society recognized and apologized for one of its mistakes. The injustice now stands as an example of the significance of suspending civil rights.

If you are ever in a position where you have to make a decision that will immediately affect the safety and the confidence of hundreds, to say nothing of hundreds of millions, of lives, you may find that you, too, have a tendency to over react. The purpose of a Consitution is to bring things back into balance once a crisis has been normalised. Whether or not we are able to do that in this case will be the test of whether we have won or lost.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:55 PM

Syrian rue?

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM

Well, we're a pretty much all a bunch of amoebas here......sadly we got some pond scum too.
Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM

Sourdough,
The problem with people like you is that you tend to rain on the parade by actually making cogent comments that represent a blending of education and good common sense. You go girl....


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM

Kin I be a rotifer 'Spaw? Huh? Kin I? Huh?
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:12 PM

Guest Yabbit:
The trouble with people like you is they say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:16 PM

Sourdough, you have fractured the suspension of belief that some of us are in charge:-) With a selected head of state ,trust in a democratic process in times of declared war against John Doe is threatened, no matter how high Shrub's ratings are now.
If we were together on Politically Incorrect I would get the cat calls and cheers and you would get the polite but enthusiastic applause.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:20 PM

Could somebody interpret Donuel's last message. My Ph.D. isn't serving me too well in this instance.
And Amos, sorry about the repeated message. My bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.....


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Skeptic - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:23 PM

troll,
I think how we interfere may have something to do with it. After all, we are interfering in Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia to mention a few

Do you propose isolationism of some sort as a solution?

Perhaps we need to look at how we meddle and interfere, and why we are publically proclaiming support for democratic government, civil liberties and so on but acting in against those ends. Wonder what the Kuwaiti (and others) think about the us coming in , kicking out the Iraqis and then restoring a monarchy that traditionally has been less than supportive of democracy in their own country?

It isn't rue you are covered in.

That's for the whale comment made elsewhere. Why worry about thread creep when we can go at it across multiple sites, after all.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Margo - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:32 PM

No we haven't.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Deda - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:31 PM

The people who have lost the war are those whose husbands, wives, children, siblings, best friends died for no reason on 9/11. The next round of people to lose the war will be the mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, and children of the combatants who die -- or of the victims of the next senseless attack.
My son is 22 -- just the right age for cannon fodder, historically. I pray for his safety every day of my life. I have tremendous faith, but it does seem that extremist fundamentalism of ANY stripe just creates and then justifies chaos and death and hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:44 PM

Fourth Amendment? That's unreasonable search and seizure, right? the right of the people to be secure in their persons and houses and papers and all that, and no troops being quartered in peacetime? Ain't that the one?
Y'know the DEA got in some big trouble over that awhile back.

well, I have posted to so many threads the last 10 days they are all running together now and my head hurts. Before I go to my pig-singing lesson I better find an aspiring or something.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM

...aspiRIN... (see what I mean?)

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:55 PM

July-6-2002
Sorry I haven't posted in awhile , on our way to the 4th of July fireworks I was detained for 48 hours at the security checkpoint for not having my national identity card. I'm still a little sore from the "reasonable" search and seizure.

Should the war continue another 12 years my 6 year old son will surely be drafted.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM

Sounds a little vague, but in the event that you were actually mistreated, it should not be taken as a sign of general decline of rights. If you compare the present (even factoring in the possibility of some abuses by panicky officers) to the past you will see that there has been a steady decrease in the ability of police and others to abuse their power.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Joe - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:41 AM

Hello Donuel I think the Media Should not be given full access to coverage of the war look back at what happened to the seal team who landed on the beach and where swarmed by reporters.I for one would not want the media letting our enemy know what the hell were doing remember the old saying from WW2 lose lips sink ships.Donuel also the fourth Admendment can be over ridden by a thing called probable cause. I would like to also ask a question have you ever faced a bully when you were in school? Deda those people have not lost a war they have lost the ones they love to lose the war they would have to give up completely and not go on with their lives.Your right about your son but they have proven they can harm him whether he is over there fighting against them or back here enjoying the day not bothering anyone. Amos Bin Laden is without a doubt responsible for the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania and since he has already struck there why shouldn't we arrest him anyway for those crimes. Before I leave for the night I would like to end this with a little story. There was a captain of a fighting ship. He was fully engaged with an enemy vessel, the cannons were roaring, men were screaming the fight was intense. The captain of the enemy vessel seen he was getting the better of are hero and shouted to him"good sir do you wish to surrender" are hero's reply was "I have not yet begun to fight" That man and hero of the story was John Paul Jones and he went on to win that day.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GeorgeH - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:10 AM

To my mind a lot of the replies here indicate just how close to the truth Donnel is . .
As for the person who said "The only way we can lose the war against terrorism is by betraying our own principles of decency, fairness and justice.", well, that really hands it to Donnel, Game, Set and Match. Even within its own land, the US's principles of "Decency, fairness and justice" are often pretty hard to discern. In its international policies and actions they're often invisible.

Oh, and Terrorism isn't an entity on which you can make war, its a strategy. Which (amongst its other deployments) will always be used by those who have no other way to redress what they perceive as wrongs.

Finally, will the US start its global and all-inclusive war against terrorism by a categoric and irrevocable undertaking that it will never again give overt or covert support to any terrorist organisation?

In the State Sponsorship of Terrorism league the US comes pretty high - which says a lot about its committment to "decency, fairness and justice".

I guess I ought to stay out of here before I cause too much more upset. The extent to which people's hearts have run away with their heads is both frightening and deeply depressing . .

G.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:52 AM

George H.
The reason that big D (and you) is difficult to take seriously is the overall lack of an objective reading of American history. The fundamental fact is that our various freedoms have been strengthened thru time. Consider the following.

1.It is argued that freedom of the press is infringed. How does this compare to T. Roosevelt who could get away with literally blackballing members of the press who disagreed with his policies.

2.What about the freedom to protest/strike? Is it infringed like seventy years ago when the military and police often served as mercenaries and shot down dozens of striking workers for mining companies and factories. On a similar note, ever heard of what happened to the World War One Veteran's bonus march on Washington D.C. in the 1920s.

3.Our protection against various abuses by law enforcement is greatly improved. Do you really think that things are nearly as bad now as during the J. Edgar Hoover reign in the FBI.

All of these areas have shown improvement even since the Reagan administration. Of course, there is always room for improvement, and tempered skepticism toward the government is great in a Demoracacy. However, shrill and unsubstantiated cries of "The sky is falling" aren't.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:03 AM

IN A DEEP, LOW VOICE
"The Sky is sagging, the Sky is sagging".

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:26 AM

Good boy John, its nice to see caution rather than hysteria. As Don Rickles would say, "You get a cookie."

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Butch, at work - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM

Donuel, before making yourself look like a blind, unthinking person, try reading some American history. We have not lost, we have not yet fought this one. By your definition, we lost WWII on DEc. 20th, 1941! I am sure there are a few vets out there (not to mention scholors) who would challange you on your fine conclusion!

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:36 AM

Butch, . To be true to myself and honor the vets and serious posts here I will simply add a quote that suggests why I believe we have lost before we begin.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction...

The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the darkness... of annihilation."

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,yeah but... - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:45 AM

Invoking the King is a good literary touch, but producing some actual facts to support the stuff that you have been spouting would get a lot of people off your back.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:09 AM

Does anyone have a coherent idea of just how the US should handle this crisis? And If I hear "JustLOVE them and try to understand them " or a variant thereof one more time, I'm gonna puke.
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:11 AM

Donuel,
Are you, as BillD indicated, in the DC area? Am curious to know a bit more about what happened to you on the 4th of July--PM me if you want--


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

Once the first reports of killed Muslims at the hands of American forces are broadcast world wide it will be too late to create any lasting icon of a peaceful political solution.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:37 AM

MTed the 4th of July post was a satire of a fictitious incident that occurred 7-4-NEXT YEAR.
Regarding the reality of today: For my wife to get to work she has to allow for an extra 40 minutes per day since they search everyone on the buses she takes to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:13 AM

Date: 20-Sep-01 - 04:16 PM
Sourdough, you have fractured the suspension of belief that some of us are in charge:-) With a selected head of state ,trust in a democratic process in times of declared war against John Doe is threatened, no matter how high Shrub's ratings are now.

If we were together on Politically Incorrect I would get the cat calls and cheers and you would get the polite but enthusiastic applause.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR From: GUEST,Yeah but... Date: 20-Sep-01 - 04:20 PM

Could somebody interpret Donuel's last message. My Ph.D. isn't serving me too well in this instance.

OK , Some people here become so embroiled in their interpretations of what our foreign policies should be, they invest in a belief that their opinions may make a difference (as if they are in charge or elections are fair). Sourdough may have brought some of these people down to earth with moderate comments. President Bush is the legitimate President however there is a fear that the democratic process has been dealt a blow. The selection by the Supream Court of Bush may come back to haunt him later after our declared war against all terrorists "in general" is proven to be a tough process with many domestic perils. Despite his current high approval ratings they could drop like a stone similar to his Dads.

My opinions can be inflamatory in title and controversial in satire and may enrage or delight. A moderate approach to common sense will get much more polite applause in comparison.-end of translation for the PHD challenged.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM

Somehow, Donuel, I don't think that they appreciate your Ionesco-like sense of humor.
At any rate, at the rate of 40 minutes a day, your wife will have been detained for more than 48 hours by the next fourth of July, and I am sure that they check ID's on the bus, as well. A few nights back, we drove down Georgia Av., only to encounter a police barricade--nearly twenty police officers, carefully examining each car--not to worry, it was only a "sobriety check"--


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM

Donuel,
Thanks for rendering it into English. Now that we understand your opinion, care to dazzle us with some facts.....


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Lonesome EJ - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM

We have lost the war. Japanese planes have pulverized our Pacific Fleet. The USS Arizona stands as a lasting monument to our negligence and our defeat. The President has called for War, creating a martial law footing which will rob us of our tradition of freedom. We have no alternative but to surrender our country and hope for mercy.
Donuel, 1941


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Paul from Hull - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM

Troll,
My opinion, for what its worth, is that:

A/ We continue 'harassing' the Taliban to hand him over... while at the same time continuing to encourage them (through diplomatic means) to continue to 'suggest' to him that he leaves. A re-iteration & clarification of the statement that NO terrorism, ANYWHERE will be tolerated needs to be made again, & again.

B/ We drop food, etc, to the Refugee Camps inside Pakistan. That might go a long way towards keeping the Pakistani Government on our side, despite pressure from sections of their own Population. Hopefully it will also draw more people out of Afghanistan anyway.

C/ Do NOTHING Militarily until we can increase support BY doing nothing.... let more & more Nations fall into line behind us, encouraged by the fact that we are exercising restraint. (I DON'T consider that we can claim that we have, just yet, simply because we havent struck in the past week). That will allow us to build up more & more HUMINT, & other forms, as more & more is processed... doubtless we cant have already discovered all that there is to discover even regarding the events of 11/9. Anyway, its seldom possible to have ENOUGH information about ones enemy.

D/ Bin Ladens assets may have already been frozen since '98, but doubtless there are others in the 'Terrorist community' who might continue to support him, who's assets HAVENT been seized/frozen yet... we need to get Financial Institutions to do just that.

E/ Actively RECRUIT Arabs/Muslims as Translators/Linguists, even Covert Operatives. (An ENORMOUS task, I know.... they would all have to be subjected to the most stringent Security checks, & so on). Naturally, that involves continuing to ensure that those in our own countries are not harrassed, attacked, or intimidated.

F/ Work with the Authorities in 'Palestine'. The Israeli's, to my mind, made a very bold & laudable step in pulling back from the territiories so recently moved into.

G/ Work with ANYONE who will listen, to root out terrorism & potential terrorism wherever, but DO NOT repeat the errors made in setting Bin Laden up to resist the Soviets. Gaddafi, despite the past, has, for a few years now, its reported, has been HOLDING BACK the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism in North Africa.

H/ Keep re-iterating that TERRORISM is the enemy, & NOT those who have made a tool of it in the past. We must not let any of this be perceived as purely against islam, even Islamic Fundamentalism.

Maybe with all this done, & or ongoing, we CAN consign the word terrorism to the history books.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Paul from Hull - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

Ooops, forgot to say that that's is just my own, half-arsed personal opinion, of course..I'm just a nobody!

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:32 PM

Entry by bus into Federal installations does in fact involve searches - not sobriety searches. If you have not heard of the proposed National Identity Card you soon will.
Some believe the only worthy facts in the conflict involve posting the ravings of terrorists. Others produce no facts at all and smugly snipe the conversation of others. Perhaps they believe they will be merely inconvienienced by the war. They are not expecting to die in the stench of their own small pox pustuels. Escalation to bio war is still unthinkable to some today as last weeks events were back in August.

Calm , cautious , discriminate thinking is not the sole domain of war zealots. In fact I think it is sorely lacking in the war zealot mind set represented here.

I have delineated a well organized response to global terrorism in other threads. You have read them , perhaps you pay little attenion to the attribution of various posts.