OK, so that's enough. This thread is about 500 messages too long. We all now know that Dick Miles and Jim Carroll are offended by the term "Pardon industry." If left unchecked, Miles and Carroll will go on for months expressing their indignation. And as soon as they settle down a bit, Pseudonymous or some other troll will come in and wind them up again. If I do away with Pseudonymous, some other troll will come in, so what's the use in doing away with Pseudonymous? A long chain of trolls have gone after Miles and Carroll over the years, and Miles and Carroll have never failed to respond with their delicious, melodramatic indignation. And note how Miles and Carroll are able to generate sympathy from otherwise-normal participants (and, may I note, turn that sympathy against any moderator who would dare try to bring Miles and Carroll under control).

Mr.Miles and Mr. Carroll are classic "victim" types in the game of Internet forums. They are part of the troll-victim equation that can bring an Internet forum down, if somebody does not intervene occasionally to break the equation. Nobody likes trolls, so the obvious solution is to give in to the demands of the oh-so-persecuted victims and eliminate the trolls. The trouble is, the victims will then draw more trolls in short order, and the game will go on. Mr. Miles and Mr. Carroll have been playing this game for years, and I think it's time to break their side of the equation.

But there's a problem. This is a folk music forum. It thrives on discussion of folk music, and Mr. Miles and Mr. Carroll do know folk music and have occasionally contributed valuable information to this forum. So, if a moderator tries to do anything against them, they can generate all sorts of sympathy and outrage against anyone who would do such a thing to these valuable icons of folk music.

But the problem is, we still have two classic "victims" who have been paralyzing Mudcat threads for years, and they will continue to do so unless they are forced to stop. So, what's a moderator to do, to deal with these toxic victim personalities? I have tried all sorts of tactics over the years. I've tried reasoning with the victims - I corresponded daily with Jim Carroll for a good 6 months, attempting to deal with his demands that I eliminate Iains. I try the occasional insult, like questioning whether Mr. Miles is man enough to put up with minor insults like the "Pardon industry" quip that Pseudonymous has exploited so adroitly. Ten years ago, I gave Mr. Miles a "certified asshole" award. He brings that up occasionally as proof of what a horrible person I have.

So, right now, my effort to control the endless victim-troll game, is to try to control the victims who have plagued us for years. Mr. Miles and Mr. Carroll are both under orders to stop responding to trolls. And if they can't do that, then I will have to take action to control them. Mr. Miles and Mr. Carroll are two very high-maintenance Mudcatters. I can deal with most people in a few minutes, and they go away happy. But Miles and Carroll go on and on and on, and they will never be happy.

Sympathize with these classic victims if you will, but realize that they're playing you for suckers. Sorry, but I cannot allow public discussion of how I'm handling this, and I'm not going to allow discussion of Walter Pardon for a while. If you wish to discuss anything with me or with Max, email joe@mudcat.org or max@mudcat.org