The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #162662   Message #4185153
Posted By: Gibb Sahib
03-Nov-23 - 07:15 PM
Thread Name: Origins: Blood-Red Roses, WW2 version
Subject: RE: Origins: Blood-Red Roses, WW2 version
The "main" thread on this topic has been closed, so I cannot post this there. (Perhaps an administrator would be interested to re-open it or move this material there?)
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=34080

I only recently discovered—I say "discovered" in the ironic sense of Christopher Columbus discovering America; people of the region have known all along—that this song's familiar Caribbean form (for lack of a better label) has also been part of Guyanese song tradition.

It *appears* (from my distanced, internet-based perspective) to be a standard part of the kwe kwe tradition. Kwe kwe is the traditional practice of gathering the night before a wedding is to take place. Members of the bride and groom's sides, respectively, called "nations," encounter one another and then celebrate. The singing, most traditionally, was accompanied only by dancers' stamping feet, but in more recent times includes drums. As people process to the home they sing what seems to be a fairly standard sequence of songs that mark ritual moments. ("Goodnight-eh!," "Oh Nation, a where dem deh?", a version of "Brown Girl in the Ring," etc.) Many of the songs "fit" the standard call-and-response form of chanties.

"Coming Down with a Bunch of Roses" is one of these songs. The groom's party is processing to the bride's family's house around midnight. Here are some examples.

At 4:02, Guyanese folklorist Bryan Chester explains:
https://youtu.be/iXu2L7o7tJY?si=blV7TzuNPgb6GQZi
In this event (2019), the party holds palm branches which might represent the "roses"?

The woman explaining the rituals in this clip doesn't sing the song, but the title flashes on the screen, 13:56:
https://youtu.be/fkrEdZRHhSM?si=XZfF9ZvermkgxJTv

In this interview with elder Mama Vanessa, 2002-3 (aged around 98), she describes context (including flowers) and sings the song at 13:32:
https://youtu.be/QNxphGjKAnM?si=1YtGRIxhux2GLS5w

At the start of this 2017 clip, the processors sing the song with roses in hand:
https://youtu.be/9SgdyXEj-PM?si=GjjLWRC_dCq62E_P

One possible thing to speculate is that "Coming Down with a Bunch of Roses" is more original to this Guyana ritual context. While still symbolic, there are some actual "roses" involved to which the lyrics directly refer. When the song appears elsewhere--a children's ring play in Trinidad, a kalenda stick-fighting dance in Trinidad, an anthem in the Bahamas, a hauling song on ships-- those may be borrowings of the song wherein the "roses" part has no meaning related to the context.