The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #34080   Message #458927
Posted By: Metchosin
09-May-01 - 03:49 PM
Thread Name: Origins: Blood Red Roses (what's it mean?)
Subject: RE: Blood Red Roses
Actually Cranky Yankee, for authenticity I would not rely on Johanna Colcord, but get hold of a copy of Shanties by W.B. Whall, Master Mariner. I quote from his book published in 1910, Ships, Sea Songs and Shanties:

"As to Shanties, two attempts, so far as I know, have been made to collect them: these were not successful because the writers were not well equipped for the work. If a lady goes round sailors' boarding homes and attempts to copy down words and music of Shanties from men, she is bound to fail. First, sailors are shy with ladies. Secondly, few of these songs have words which seaman would care to sing to a lady in cold blood. And thirdly, very few sailors were shanty men." I believe he was referring to Colcord here.

Regarding Runciman
"a mercantile officer, who, presumably started sea life too late to have known Shanties in their prime ... who sang the tunes to a musical friend who harmonized and wrote accompaniments to them ... This was bad enough, but to make things worse, the author put words of his own to the songs; this, of course, at once took away any possible value they might have had"

Regarding the content of what was sung, not the form
"now seaman who spent their time on cargo-carrying ships" (as opposed to those on passenger ships who were regaled to clean up their acts until the passengers were removed) "never heard a decent Shanty; the words which sailor John put to them, when unrestrained, were the veriest filth."
And here he cites Hog-Eye Man and considering the verses I have heard, rightly too eg:
'O Nellie's in the kitchen punching duff,
And the cheeks of her arse go chuff, chuff chuff.'
And that was one of the nicer verses of which I am personally aware.

He goes on:
"It was in these vessels--and only these that a collector of songs was wanted, and it is only is such vessels that a collection could have been made. Such a collection was made, both of Songs and Shanties, by me."

He is not particularly modest, but I am inclined to believe him, as he was at sea aboard the East Indiamen for eleven years, starting in 1861, and states, from 1872 onwards, he had "not heard a Shanty or Song worth the name" ..at least on his side of the pond.

I have seen references on the Web that Blood Red Roses originated in New Zealand. Can anyone confirm this?