I'm sorry if I sounded like I was attacking Swan. I have been kicked so many times by rabid vegitarians that I sometimes overreact. Mea culpa.

I agree that the meat industry in this country (USA) is pretty disgusting.

Nobody has mentioned that kosher meats are prepared in ways, and facilities, which minimize cruelty and suffering. (Of course every time I mention anything Jewish the trolls come out of the walls, but it does deserve mentioning, and I can't muzzle myself to please cowardly attackers, or they will have won. If everyone but the bullies leave the playground, there will be nobody left but bullies.)

Nor the philosophical point that animals don't "suffer" the way humans in pain do, because they (at least the ones typically used for food) lack a sense of self that makes pain into suffering. (This is not a philosophical point but rather a neurological one -- I can give you book titles if you like.)

I do think everything should be done to minimize the pain of animals, and make their lives as pleasant as can be expected given the type of animal they are.

Nobody has mentioned essential amino acids, I don't believe. John in Hull, when you stop eating meat and other animal products (dairy, eggs), you must ensure that your diet includes the amino acids which humans cannot produce inside their own bodies and must therefore get from their food. Probably the best discussion of this (that I have seen) is in the book, "Laurel's Kitchen." It's also a great cookbook.

Alex