Seed, I'm being picky, but ... wasn't it Hari Seldon in 'Foundation'? And I thought it was George Bernard Shaw who said it, but it doesn't really matter if it was Harry Ramsden or Harry Corbett or Sooty and Sweep; I think it's meant as a description of the incompetent rather than a definition of violence. 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel' (Dr Johnson) - there's another one: not all patriots are scoundrels (and vice-versa).

Here's another: 'don't throw out the baby with the bath-water'. I don't know which side is right and which is wrong, and I don't think there's an answer to that question; if the answer doesn't make sense, it's usually because you're asking the wrong question. Don't ask me what the right question is, although it might be on the lines of 'is there a solution that doesn't involve people having to suffer?'.

Steve