Thoughtful stuff, Big Mick. And Amos, you're not rambling - far from it. I wish your words could be brought to an audience of millions, and I hope that all those who read this thread will take heed of them.

Especially "the sure path to Allah's garden is to die in his service." To my mind this makes the instant knee-jerk emphasis on "retribution" ring a bit hollow. And Spaw's childish faith in a quick and surgical reaction becomes so much impotent spluttering. Fact is, the people who did this are as indifferent about their own lives (some of them obviouslly killed themselves) as they are about anyone else's.

Like Kendall, I can't say I'm surprised at what's happened - only at the utterly phenomenal scale of the planning, resources and commitment that must have gone into it including, I guess, trained airline pilots among the terrorists. (Or did they drug aircrew into compliance?) It looks like at least one plane had a bomb on board as well as (presumably) guns, but security at US airports is about the most ineffective I've seen anywhere.

In the thread about National Missile Defence, where one or two catters dreamed about a USA cacooned from the world, I suggested a better policy would be for America to generate fewer enemies. I was sickened by the sight of today's celebrations in Palestine, but killing all those who cheered - were it possible, and bearing in mind that many were kids of ten or so - merely sends them to Allah sooner.

Obviously I'm all in favour of the right people being rooted out and brought to justice,if that can be done. I just don't think it will achieve much. My hope is that America - even an America with Bush at the helm - will begin to recognise that it cannot just wrap itself in a bullet-proof vest, but must start to give serious thought to the animosities it seems to attract from a large part of the world.