Cobble and Terry, my friends. You do not really believe that I actually think that the royals have any real power? You should know me better than that!(I know they have none, though they do have influence. Only Phil and Charlie are really brave enough to express opinions and exert theirs, also much good work is done by others in the royal circle) I believe the "royal ascent" has only been refused once or twice in the last few hundred years-can't remember what for) The elected government runs the country (But the non elected mandarins in "Whitehall"-many of them the "old school tie" class have great influence). Most times the police service runs independantly within it's localised area eg North Yorkshire police (being county or political boundrry based)under the control of it's chief constable within the framework of legislation given by the government(Through the home office, the home secretary and parliament)But that being so, the "met" "thugs" were sent to yorkshire in the miners strike.(nor do I really think of Her majesties navy or any of the armed forces as being "hers", but I believe there were a few "queens" in the navy)I suggested that much the turbulent times of the 80's and 90's were the result of "Her Mag -isties" government, and predecessors (meaning Maggie T- should have put 2 t's in the spelling for more obivous effect, but the pun was missed (I did indicate this).

Cllr, I agree rational debate based on evidence and logical, reasonable arguement is the desired outcome of discussion. (And if the truth be known, I have as harsh an opinion of the "loony left" as I do of the right wing extremists).I did not, and was not asked, I am glad, (though requests to enlarge discussion end up as thread creep) my opinions of the early 70's period in our political history or the present because that would have thown a big cat into the pigeon loft and produced greater dichotomy.

I agree that "get rid of the royals, yes or no?" and ask for expressed opinions simplifies what would be an extremely complex discussion. It has led to almost rigid polarisation, which is a shame, worse than that it has led to insults and offence being taken (which I very much doubt was the original intention of the thread). Though I don't feel personally offended about anything written here or in the threads about this or words directed towards me. I don't take slight easily as those who know me will be able to testify and I rarely intend to insult people- I often chide,in a (I hope) good natured way.I quite like perverse argument, it is a often a very good way of finding out real depth of feeling and gaining insight, but can become emotionally entangled, as it has here.(I enjoy untangling what makes people tick, it is part of my job to make rational and realistic asessments of people, I am quite good at my job).

Never once did I offer an alternative to the royals or a strategy for their removal or replacement- I did not feel it was in the brief of this discussion.(nearly all of this argument has been hypothetical)

I do maintain strong beliefs about equality, (though I know this is an "ideal" and not really practical given the nature of human beings and the animal kingdom in general) But nonetheless I would enjoy seeing a levelling out of the social culture within which we live.(Ideally, but very difficult practically)

For me I will state that I don't believe that wealth and power should be handed down from generation to generation by right. I believe each generation should have a better life and opportunities than the generation before. It is the only logical pattern for human evolution if we are to continue as a species (since medical practice and change in socio- econimic structure has almost removed "natural" selction and is in danger of replacing it with controlled genetic inheriatance-ok, over simplification again!)

It is often said one should never discuss religion or politics. I quite enjoy discussing both.( but in a forum such as this(I only go on mudcat, so have no experience of others), one can often, only make generalities and simplify ideas for brevity)

Cllr, it takes a certain courage to brave your soul in public,(and stand your ground and principles) as we both have done. I respect you for this.

Cllr- I'd still prefer to call you by a name- mine really is Eric. I play a poor guitar, an even poorer mandolin and progresively worse down the scale, through tenor banjo (if someone is daft enough to lend me one) to mouth organ, bodhran and finally, torment others with my singing. I get to almost all the gatherings ( with written permission, and granted LoA from Wife and Kids), people are kind enogh to let me play in sessions like the Jug, and others,play in the scratch celiedh band,occasionally get to the local folk club.Festivals when I can, Cleckheaton, Fleetwood, Have been to Sidmouth Cambridge, Swinton and many others over the years.What styles of music are you into?

Hopefully we'll meet, though not opposite sides of the barricades!