terry - thank god there is someone else who has problems - most people i know seem to pick up my guitar - which admittedly is gorgeuos - and play and sing a song making it sound quite whole!! i have a great teacher who kepps me motivated and heaps on the praise for every little acheivement but sadly i thin guest-gargoyle might be right and i am probably tone deaf!! while i enjoy it i shall carry on playing but only in private i think!! thanks everyone for the help - i love mudcat!!