LOL, GUEST. I had that coming, nicely done. You are right. I really am not after kat on this, she is just the one who responded. What I have been after in this endless thread is to get folks to talk, and quit throwing strident bs back and forth. kat is being honest on what she is posting, and frankly I find her to be less prone to the "slogans and statistics" stuff than most. But as I say, she responded. Jerry, quite frankly, also seems open to the talk it out kind of discussion that I think this very difficult subject requires. I guess I am guilty of taking this further, but I feel so strongly that (in the USA) we need to get to the point of bridging the divides between reasonable people. Both Jerry and Kat seem to reasonable, even though our opinions on the subject are different. I guess it is time to let this one go.

Mick