Well, Carol, I think you have a weird definition, but it's yours and I salute your right to have it.

However, using your own definition, wouldn't you say the Founding Fathers were supreme in their effort to achieve liberty?

And from what I can gather, from those who classify themselves as liberals on the mudcat, they would NEVER go to war for anything, including liberty. Just my opinion, of course (but I can read).

DougR