The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #52026   Message #794840
Posted By: GUEST,Taliesn
01-Oct-02 - 12:25 PM
Thread Name: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
Subject: RE: BS: Patriotism -- what is it?
(quote)
"In light of the recent outrage expressed by Daschle, and echoed here, how do those of you who are liberal/Democrats define patriotism. By what measure or definition do you consider yourself (if you do) "patriotic"? "

Well the pre-supposition of only asking the self-defined "liberal Dems" to define their "measure" ( in deviation from the conservative/Republican north star by any chance? ) of of one's "patriotism"?

Right out the gate seems you've completely ignored what an "independent" defines as "patriotic" as if no such position exists
let alone matters.

I can't help be reminded of the historic Iran-contra Affair Hearings where Oliver North applied the same tactics of ascribing "un-patriotic" tendancies to his accusers seeking to challenge him , as well as his administration , on the legality of his , and thus his administration's , actions.
The chairman was WWII Congressional Medal of Honor recipient Daniel Inoyue of Hawaii ( since become Senator for same) whom responded, in more a eloquent way ,that one could be well justified on challenging North on the legality of his actions and *ramin* every bit as "patriotic" as North proclaimed himself and his administration to be.

Well remembering the v-taped moment I recall that lttile rebut shut Ollie North up on taking that line any further since he was obviously oblivious to whom he was addressing ,namely a more decorated Marine than himself who had also lost his arin WWII.

It is in this light that I view the present administration. Neither Dubya nor Cheney has *any* military record of measure to back up the *ideologically-driven* new of *pre-emptive strike* that's apparently become "fashionable" during an ,shall we say ,an "unfavorable" economy.

It is in the light of my considering it very "patriotic" to *challenge*
either party's "war rhetoric" for it's *credability* as well as its *legitimacy*.

As a die-hard independent whom has dutifully listened to BOTH sides of the argument on dozens of issues , via C-Span broadcasts of Congressional hearings and floor debates as well as all manor of conservative to liberal think tank synposiums )for nigh on 17 years, I can clearly say that it is one's "patriotic duty" to *demand* that this present administration make DAMN cock-sure that they have presented their *credible* plans for "rebuilding Iraq" after the warfare , WHILE not having even begun to finish up what they started in Afghanistan, AND present the *bill* that every American tax-payer , whom doesn't have acess to high-priced lawyer-accountant tax shelter strategies , will have to pay by way of National Debt , BEFORE any pariotic American will *allow* this present administration any green light for prosecuting a pre-emptive war.

It was the abyssmal *failure* of Papa Bush's after-war policy of just tuning tail and leaving a vacuum in Afghanistan ,as well as leaving Saddam in power , that we find ourselves *here again*
at much more cost of blood and treasure.

In my mind it is everybody's ,no matter their political tribal affiliation, to read this admin the riot act over the absolute requirement to present a viable plan for truly "finishing the job" this time which *requires* hands-on "nation building" or this
admin's "patriotism" is thrown completely into question.

Any rabble-rousing fool can make a war and alot have.
Bush 1's admin blew it in both Afghanistan AND Iraq so we dare not just allow Pres.Shrubby the same benefit of the doubt based upon , of all things ,"voter approval ratings".

Anyone whom is just coinent to just sit back and assume this present admin. "knows what they are doing" without demanding a full account on how this same admin is compitently prepared to *really* finish the job is acting "un-patriotic" by *default* .

This is a pre-emptive war in the Middel East we are talking about here. My patriotism infomrs me that this adminstration has "yet" to prove that they have thought this through and that same patriotism requires that they DAMN well had better provide proof that they have before lighting that powder keg.

There, that should stir the pot which really needs to be shaken, not stirred.