Larry: All it takes to see a mark on a person's own back is to look in two mirrors, one mirror in front of the person and one behind. In addition to Martha' s statement that she had a mark on her back, there is Madelyne Toogood's OWN statement in the interview she did with CNN (that I linked in my earlier post on this thread) that she struck Martha "in the middle of her back" during the incident in the Kohl's parking lot in addition to the other abuse she inflicted on her daughter. Of course, she also claimed in that statement that there was never a mark on Martha. Obviously, you believe the word of the perpetrator of the abuse and not the word of the victim. Funny thing, but my copy of Faith and Practice says that one of the ways Quakers are known to serve the community is through victim support services.