The main fact of life is that as from, most probably next July, any live music practically anywhere in England Wales and Hull, will be illegal without advanced permission from the Local Authority.

If you have sessions in Hull in pubs that do not now have PELs, or any live music at all these will automatically be illegal unless application is made and permission is obtained to enable it.

This has been and is enough to bring things to a head. How bad do you need it to get?

Does it really matter? Surely just one beneficial activity prevented now and one licensee threatened with prosecution anywhere is too many?

Statistics are like mini skirts, what they reveal is interesting, what they conceal is vital.

I think that the evidence shows that over the last few years, as local authorities have prepared for the new legislation, by forming licensing committees and appointing extra licensing staff, 'silly' enforcements have increased.

But one thing is sure, we have been unable to stem the tide and prevent actions against customers making their own music in pubs. So I can state for a fact that the actions are not likely to decrease, up to the coming change in the law.

But you will just have to take the words of the people who have contibuted to the 'Killed by the PEL system' threads, over the past two years and make the judgement yourself as to whether the actions are increasing. If this factor is important to you. Why would you doubt their words?

You must be able to appreciate that the true picture is not possible to statistically demonstrate. These are criminal offences. No one is willing to risk enforcement by openly stating they are taking part or providing such a thing. If folk are not having local trouble, they are not very likely (as in Hull) to risk 'rocking the boat'.

But this thread was in danger of saying that because it had not snowed in Hull, there was no such thing as snow.

You say I am close to the issue. Yes that is true and all the above info is freely available. I am only forced to try and demonstrate the situation in this thread because you are not close to the issue, and do not have any more satistics than me, but seem to think the position is not as I believe it is.

I wish I had not been so close to the issue, for it did rather find me. I am far more bored with all these PEL threads than anyone.

Do you have to see and feel snow before you are prepared believe it exists? Kris, if I asked you to prove to me that there is no such thing as snow, could you do it?

You do not like me suggesting that you are sounding smug but are quite happy to suggest that me and others think that we are misrepresenting the facts to you and demanding proof.

To point out to potential tourists that certain folk activities are considered illegal, is not quite the same thing as saying that there is not leagl (or illegal) music making still to be experienced, in Hull or anywhere else.

It is difficult to make a case that all this is not under serious threat.

But as this thread mentions both Hull and PELs, there is not much chance of many folk here actually reading it.........*Smiles*