C-flat you sound like an 'Eckist'! The name of their spiritual leader IS 'Harold'!!

The Eckists have a version of "Amazing Grace" (written by Harold) that goes "... how sweet the sound that TOUCHED A SOUL LIKE ME". No wretchedness, and it even has meter too!

Jerry and Joe, I agree that faith is based on a lot more than words, but words are VERY powerful things, especially to young children first learning language. I tried saying the Lord's Prayer using " which art" and "in earth" and for me, those words gave a whole new idea, new feeling to the prayer. I think my concept of 'God', of the earth I live on (not 'in' but 'on'), and myself would have been 'moulded' differently had I been taught THOSE words from earliest childhood!

IMO a necessary step in spriritual growth is to move beyond 'faith' into the realm of direct personal experience. When that happens, what started as 'faith' becomes real KNOWLEDGE, and no-one/nothing can ever shake it! One need no longer rely on outside institutions - which obviously MUST have 'earthly' agendas and interests - or clergy or dogma to 'communicate' with or experience the Divine.

But to have direct personal experiences with the Divine independant of the Church's prescribed rituals and teachings, and to admit these experiences publicly used to be enough to get one burned at the stake as a 'heretic'! Look what happened to Joan of Arc, for example! The Churches would have no mandate, no means of power and control over 'the masses', and no means of accumulating wealth if everyone knew they could experience 'Divine revelation' on their own!

Let's not forget that Jesus Himself fought against the power-and-control and greed of the Temple of His day. That 'blasphemy' cost Him his earthly life! And He did teach that whatever great works He had done, we also could do - and even greater works too! For me, that says it ALL about our nature as spiritual beings!

Thank you so much to Mudcat for this chance to learn and to share my thoughts. I mean NO OFFENSE to ANYONE'S religious sensibilities! And I'm grateful I can say these things today without fear for my life.

Peace and love,

daylia