I hope that you will forgive me for also not typing out the long introduction to this? I have also attached an earlier Radio 4 interviw, where Howells defended the licensing of chuches etc........on public safety.

BBC Radio 3 Money Matters 26 January 2003

I started by asking Kim Howells why, since pubs clubs, churches and many other venues had been managing perfectly well for all theses years without a licensing charge, he felt the need for change?

KH Well, you say they have managed quite well, of course that's only if you have two musicians in the licensed premises. If you want to have three, or you want to have a quartet, you've got to get an entertainment's licence. At the moment these can be very, very expensive, and what we're going to do is to try to ensure that in the future, it'll be very easy for a licensee, whether it's a pub, a restaurant or a night-club, or whatever. Simply to go along to the Licensing Authority – pay one fee, which will be very strictly controlled by the Secretary of State, and that will include, if the licensee wants it err, permissions to put on entertainments. And that gives much more scope for more musicians to be playing in those kinds of venues and we think that this is going to strengthen the number of venues, and deepen quality too.

But of course many of the venues will say that they simply can't afford this, so what are they supposed to do?

KH Well at the moment of course, we've head horror stories of venues, especially in central London who have to pay thousands of pounds for an entertainments licence. Now we're gonna set a fee that is going to be between £100 and £500, which is a lifetime fee for a premises licence and a annual charge, if you like of £100 - £150, so these are hugely reduced costs. And it should put the whole thing on an even keel, people will know where they are and there will be real consistency there.

OK, I'm going to bring in Robb Johnson there, who is manger of Irregular Records, a songwriter and guitarist but more importantly for us today. a performer. Who goes around doing exactly the sorts of things that a lot of people are saying will maybe stop. Robb you are not particularly happy about all of this, are you?

RJ No I think its going to do away with a very important part of the spectrum of the musical life of this country. It's going to hit ordinary people hardest. It's gong to stop creativity in ordinary people. A lot of the venues I play in, I feel sure, I think the minister is being rather economical with the truth, when he says, simply going along to Licensing Authority, like just like popping down to the chip shop, it is bound to be more complicated than that. And I'm sure that a vast number of venues are not going to go simply along to their Licensing Authorities. And a lot of the gigs that people in this sort of music play, they are benefits or they're informal occasions they're privately organised gigs, That's going to stop.

KH Can I ask you a question? Why would a licensee, who regularly has two musicians playing in his or her pub, not want to tick a box or fill in a form which says, 'when I have my licence renewed I would like to have the right to stage music in it. At no extra cost, this is the misinformation that's gone around –

Didn't you say there was a fee of £100 - £500?

KH No at the moment, if you want a licence to sell alcohol, that's one licence which you pay for. If you want to have music, you have to go along to a different Licensing Authority and ask for that particular entertainment licence and that costs you more money. What we are going to do is make one Licensing Authority who will issue you with a licence to sell alcohol, plus a licence for music if you so desire it. What id the big problem with that, if it does not cost anymore? I don't understand this argument, you see it seems to me that you're the victim of misinformation, quite frankly.

I want to more on to churches and cathedrals and how this affects them. Richard Chartres Bishop of London, you have been quite vocal already of, not least in the House of Lords about the effect this Bill will have on you and the churches. Just tell me what the position is now and how it is going to change?

RC Well, as I understand that although the intention, as the minister has said of much of this Bill is deregulation. One of the respects in which it is going to extend regulation is it is going to demand that churches, outside London should come into the licensing regime, in a way that they haven't before.
And the question I've got is. What's the evidence of abuse, which has persuaded the Government to remove the exemption that Parliament provided as recently as 1982?

Kim Howells?

KH There is no evidence of abuse, and we are trying very hard to ensure that all churches, including those in London will be exempted. What we've got to do is try and find a way of doing it properly.

RC I do appreciate the difficulty of finding the right sort of language, That why I suggest the phrase 'a place of public religion worship', which I understand has already been 'trialed' in the local government legislation. It relates to rating relief and it does seem a phrase that is tested by the courts and has some kind of substance to it. And I can understand the desire to avoid any kind of abuse of that sort of privilege and exemption, but that does seem to be a phrase that has some legal force to it.

KH It sounds very good to me and Bishop your colleague in the House, Baroness Blackstone is still engaged in the committee stage of the Bill. And she is very much hoping that something can be brought forward at the report stage of the Bill to ensure that these changes are made.

Richard Chartres, you have done some sums on this, you feel that you know what the impact of this Bill is going to be on you?

RC Well I've been trying to do some very conservative calculations. It seem that to us alone with 16,000 venues countrywide, it is going to be a considerable additional cost. And also of course a disincentive to PCCs who are volunteer to make their place available to the area that I am particularly concerned about, which is that borderline between professional and amateur. Which churches so often do provide the launch pad for them. So the conservative calculations that I have made show it will probably cost us in the initial year, a couple of million, but I am open to correction on that and it is extremely difficult to work out precisely what the figures would be.

It is a lot of money, Kim Howells?

KH It certainly is a lot of money and that is why I want to make sure that churches are exempted from having to pay it.

Culture minister Kim Howells there, with some good news then, possibly for Richard Chartres, Bishop of London? Though I have a suspicion that things aren't going to be quite as simple as that. Thanks also to Robb Johnson of Irregular Records.

The opposition to this part of the licensing Bill is raging, and will no dim by the looks of it, until concessions and amendments are made. But the Government are holding steady and all indications suggest that the Bill will go through, unaltered………….. ENDS.

Dr Kim Howells on BBC Radio 4's 'Today' programme 26 November 2002.

JH A law has been proposed that could, it is said be the kiss of death for amateur choirs, coral societies and orchestras, throughout the country. Churches used for more than 5, and church halls used for more than 5 public performances a year will have to pay for an entertainment licence, costing up to $500 per performance.

Well Rosemary Hardy is the secretary of the Ditchling choral society at Holy Trinity church in Cuckfield West Sussex, hello to you.

RH Hello to you, good morning.

JH You're worried about this, I gather?

RH Yes, we are worried because obviously – some churches may not obtain licenses, if they don't really think its worth it and that will then deprive both choirs of venues and orchestras, and the churches themselves of the revenues from the concert lettings.

[Comments on background singing]
JH I take it that you are going to carry on are you?

RH Oh yes, most certainly.

JH So you will be able to afford it?

RH Well. I certainly hope we will be. Obviously one of the problems will be that no doubt the cost of the licence will be passed on to the choirs and orchestras, that normally sing or perform in churches. And that will no doubt be passed on to the audience, through the increase in ticket prices.

JH Well, thank you for that and enjoy the rehearsal.

Well, Kim Howells – (laughs) he is described here as the Licensing Minister, anyway he is the Minister of Culture, Media and Sport and is responsible for all of this.
Why on earth! Have we got to have yet another regulation Mr Howells?

KH Well its not another regulation, err, it's a complete re-vamp of the way that licensing works in this country.

JH Even worse then?

KH Well, its not even worse John, well, where, one of the things we are doing and the most important thing we are doing is we are lifting the limits on when pubs and licensed premises and so on, can open, its err, a huge job.

JH This is not to do with pubs, this is to do with churches and church halls and they are going to have to have a performing licence - 500 quid a time!

KH No, its not £500 a time. No we are setting fees in bands of about £110 to £500. And it's a one off licence, for the lifetime of that premises.

JH But why do you need anything? I mean I don't know what the point of it is, this is the thing?

KH Well, I will try and explain it to you.

JH Come on.

KH The churches in London, for example have been subject to a licensing regime for 40 years. There are big churches that hold very big concerts for profit. And if something was to go wrong inside one of those churches, there was a fire or something else happened, the Local Authorities that have to inspect those premises would really be in trouble and they have to be paid for those functions. .That's why there has to be a licence - its to do with public safety.

JH But aren't we back to the old 'sledgehammer and a nut' thing here? It's hard to think, I don't know many Brownie nativity plays in church halls, where they have had big problems and had to inspected for Health and Safety

KH And they won't be charged a licence – look the Sec……

JH But - look - sorry they will, if they have more than 5 performances a year.

KH Err- no - look, are you doing this legislation or me?

JH Well, I am hoping you will explain it.

KH And I am trying to. There will not be a licence imposed on a, err, on a Brownie carol concert at a church, this is a nonsense. Err, the Secretary of State sets the fees for license, centrally and she can order that fees be waived, under certain circumstances and we have absolutely no intention whatsoever of stopping people having carol services or brownie festivals or anything else.

JH Yes – but you say, "can be waived" so therefore it must exist, in order to be waived in the first place, How many performances – is it true that they can only have 5, without having to go through this licensing nonsense?

KH Well. How many churches have 5 carol services every year?

JH Well, it might be different things, maybe a choral society, might be a nativity play, might be all sorts of things.

KH Err, well, I am saying if there is a carol service, err or a or err choral society practising or whatsoever, and its in conjunction with its religious function, then it won't be charged a fee.

JH Well, we will see how it all works out, Kim Howells many thanks.

ENDS