Jim Dixon,

Abandon hope.

Been there. Can't do it.

There are just too many fundamental pre/misconceptions going on here.

For the sake of simplicity I will focus on fiddling and "violining".

Perhaps the most fundamental and insidious misconception (IMHO) is the one that views traditional fiddling as bad or poor or at least lesser violin playing.

If you begin with the assumption that traditional fiddlers and classically trained violinists are doing (or trying to do) essentially the same thing and have essentially the same goals, then QED it is patently obvious that classically trained violinists and/or classical training have something to offer to trad fiddlers and fiddling.

But if you DON'T start from there, then the conclusion doesn't follow at all. You can actually start making sense of the notion that classical training could be an obstacle to getting trad fiddling "right".

Abandoning the first starting point and getting to the 2nd is not easy. Probably cannot talk anybody into it. It is more a "you gotta be there" kind of intuition.

Discussions like this always have faint, but to my ears unmistakable, echoes of cultural imperialism. You basically get lots of variations on, "If they'd just stand up straight and put the violin in the right place and hold the bow correctly and work on that scratchiness, they'd sound so much better."

Don't even get me started about singing.

If you cannot win. Change the rules.