I am really enjoying this thread, and I've been thinking long and hard about these concepts for decades now, and the thoughts expressed here are actually helping me out of some of my own biases... Thanks, all!

I'd like to express myself more clearly, as I've discovered that while reading this thread, my original intentions are becoming clearer... as to why I needed to begin it.

John P's post is indeed a signpost for me, and hoping he will excuse me, I will use it as an example.

"Folk musicians are people who play folk music and make it sound like folk music. I don't care much to listen to people, of whatever training or lack thereof, who play folk music but don't know how to make it sound like folk music. It just doesn't sound right. But the idea that a musician would automatically be disqualified by classical training is both silly and elitist."

I have strong feelings come up in me when I read this...

The first is this... 'sounding like' folk music is an oxymoron for me. Either it is folk music, or not. People who try to 'sound like' a genera, in my opinion, are attempting perhaps to impersonate a culture by dressing the part without actually having lived it...

Does John P think he can tell us what 'folk music' sounds like? I would like to ask him to tell us just how he knows... before he 'doesn't care much to listen to us'... actually, I can imagine a scenario where John P packs up his judgements and leaves, while the rest of us enjoy the personal expressions of a supremely creative and expressive interpretaion...

...and, after making such judgemental assertions... with the self assurance of a snob in sheep's clothing... the cresciendo is achieved for me with the last declaration.

After reading this thread, I see little exposition on the topic of turning away classical trained individuals from a hearty and avid folk (a)vocation... and herein lies my mordant (mordent) personal drama... I find the pedantic nature of John' P's post to be not so very silly, but... quite elitist.

Hoping you all will excuse my ascerbic response here... I am doubting that any of you knew how strongly I felt about this topic, or how John P is peripherally connected to my need to start this thread...

For me, a lot of this is about the competition... or more specifically... the 'training' that occurs when a person is deluged with sophisticated learning that is steeped in a constantly competitive atmosphere. I believe that it is this undercurrent of a competitive ethos, even more than the 'deindividualisation' of the musician... that I am anxious to avoid. I have personally witnessed countless occasions of 'psychic undermining' and 'confidence sabatauge' by people who are basically good musicians... but since they have gone through a rigorously competitive system, part of what they have 'learned' is that music is about who 'wins'... and that subtile techniques for 'tweeking' other potential 'competitors' is expected and in some cases, researched...

My take on 'folk musicians' is that most of the time we want to encourage the 'best' in others, and the rest of the time, we are letting others find the best in ourselves... and one's right to be 'really good' is attested to and achieved only by how those around them feel about themselves...

Love to all, and all the best! ttr