Hi Deb,

Thanks so much. I think that this is a worthwhile discussion don't you?

Hi Mcgrath.
You say,

" And Miners Lifeguard is still in many ways still a hymn, rewritten for secular purposes."

Miner's Lifeguard first appeared in the People's Songbook and was a re-write of the old hymn, "Life is Like A Mountain Railway" which is being sung today in the South. There was another re-write called "H-Bomb's Thunder" which appeared in Ewan McColl's and Peggy Seeger's "New City Songster." All attributable by contemporary author/composers.

The difference between a traditional folk hymn and a composed hymn still has to do with it's variants. Some traditional folk hymns have lost their original theological implications. The "Cherry Tree Carol" would be a good example of this. The point-of-view has long been lost.

Amazing Grace is interesting and may be in process. The man who wrote it was an avowed slave trader (a sea captain as I remember) and was enlightened. Has the song changed? It may have.

Lord of the Dance by Sydney Carter is a re-write on a traditional folk hymn called "Simple Gifts" which became an anthem of the Shaker community in New England. Sydney Carter is a fine songwriter and has written the lovely song, "George Fox". Both songs that he wrote owes a rhythmic nod to "Simple Gifts".

Hi Candyman

You're absolutely right that traditional folksingers couldn't care less about the status of their songs. But they are not folk song collectors or maybe particularly interested in the "folk process".
Jean Ritchie is a notable exception. She is a combination of trad folksinger and scholar. A rare and wonderful combination.

A distinction has to be made between the songs and the singer. A traditional folk singer who emanates from a specific sub-culture may elect to sing Schuber Leider. That doesn't change their relationship to their tradition. Doc Watson may sing "Over the Rainbow" and might be questionably compared to say Judy Garland, but when he sings a traditional ballad, there's no question that he is a fine traditional folk singer.

Although Doc has an extensive repitiore, it has to be acknowledged that his significance other than his guitar genius is as a genuine traditional folksinger. When he sings those songs, it's a master.

There is no rule that a traditional folksinger has to sing a traditional folksong all the time. Interesting in that when they do they bring certain musical elements to the non-trad folksong that are reflective of a trad folk music style. That's only because that's who they are. One might be right though to question whether they do that kind (pop, classical etc.)the best. For example, I don't think that the Leadbelly version of "Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out" is as musically compelling as Bessie Smith or jazz players who know the chord changes to the song.

Frank Hamilton