I like to think that I can control it - but if I'm honest I can't.

John

You and the people who love you deserve better.

Naughty little sod.

But.......Music, musicians and alcohol tragedies have been closely related since the first caveman played the drums.

I have watched so many friends lose their skills, gigs and friends because of acohol and drug stuff. Every day I see it.

John, if this is a legitimate post (and excuse me for asking...'cause some folks like to "flame" when they're bored) you'll find some friends and support around here. Hang in.

Rick

And what's your problem with the subject?

Not musically related?

We beg to differ....

Sinsull said it all really - the people I love deserve better...

John

You can control it. If you're not in a group, then find one - right now. Go to the phone book and find a number to call -- there are plenty there. Don't overwhelm about tomorrow, or the rest of today. Take it a minute, an hour, a day at a time. And give yourself lots of credit for each second, minute, hour that you stay dry. Keep reading the encouraging messages on this thread and ignore the ones that aren't. My sister is in recovery, and she has a dog-earred poster that she's had for many years that still helps her every day. It's a picture of a baby duck emerging from a hollow log. Underneath the picture is written "Arise, Awake and Conquer!" Go for it, John -- you can do it!

-- Áine

GOT YE!!!!

Ok then me old mate.
What say we do it again??

i am superman

A.C. always on the lookout for new business opportunities.

I know that I am destroying myself with the drinking and the smoking but in all honesty, I am past the point of caring about it.

Having said that, I hoe you do manage to break the habbit.

Jon

I forgot what I was going to say, now

Alcohol kills the short term......short term...Shit

Sorry folks.

Whew.

John Evans ... I apologize for the village idiots who have dominated your thread and made a mockery of your "confession."

I'm fortunate, in that I don't smoke and rarely drink, but I've been touched by both in my personal life. I've been told that admitting it the beginning. If this is where you have chosen to "admit" your addiction, my prayers are with you. If this is the only place you can bear to talk about it, I hope we can give you some support.

Please take Aine's advice and find a group. There, you will find support from others who have/are walking in your shoes.

Please keep us posted.

Are you a musician? If so, what do you play? Do you sing?

I'm celebrating Pesach (Passover). May you find your way out, as well ... shalom ... moonchild

I'm not a drinker myself, especially since I can't even buy the stuff legally, but I know people who are drinkers, and I know people with serious drug problems who have (and many who have not) tried to quit.

John, I think it's wonderful that you have recognized your problem and want to stop. The other half of the battle will be sticking with it. Whatever you do, though, DON'T GIVE UP. Too many brilliant, talented, beautiful people ruin themselves with alcohol and drugs. I know a brilliant (or he could be) hacker who is smoking himself stupid with marijuana, and a young writer who is doing the same thing (mostly with ecstasy, but the same difference, just in pill for and worse). Also, don't believe all the "it's never to late to quit" bullshite. Don't procrastinate--stop now while you have the desire to do so.

Good luck, and I hope everything works out for you.

Peace--Bridget

Peace--Bridget

Pretty tasteless under the circumstances. And as far as I know, no, you cannot smoke ecstasy.

--Bridget

"Who's been sleeping in my porridge?"

Banjoman

--Bridget

John, another symptom is the classic persecution complex that appears alongside Alcoholism. Those who would help you, remember, are maybe not the best qualified to do so. The GUEST who suggested that you seek out likeminded people in a likeminded place has a vital point.

Anybody who drinks - ANYBODY who even has 1 pint every 10 years is NOT qualified. Why?

Because they haven't left it behind them yet, and if I read your post right, you want to.

Don't take advice from drinkers, and remember, you also have to lighten up on yourself. And humor is important.

And for the rest of you morose people. Go and mix yourselves a Martini, and let on that everything is OK.

LEJ

Kind of a contradiction in terms, innit?

DougR

It was neither helpful, nor humorous

How's the scotch and ice coming along?

DougR

A

Peace--Keli

The "I dont drink scotch" one wasn't funny and was only mildly helpful.
Trouble with some assholes, Amisssss, is that they're a bit like alcoholics:

They think they're not what they are. That's because they only judge themselves and others by their own standards.

Beware John.

I really admire your courage in admitting that you're having a problem with alcohol. It's not easy to admit to yourself, let alone others, that you need some help. But don't let it stop here. If you don't take any action, nothing will change. Like others have said, there is lots of support and treatment out there. You're not alone with this--many people know firsthand what you're going through. Talk to them. And don't only do it for your loved ones, do it for YOU.

And Jon Freeman, sounds like you may be in the same boat. Why do you say you're past the point of caring? I keep writing things here in this message and then erasing them because it all sounds so contrite and stupid--obviously, I don't know what to say but I've always enjoyed your posts in the past and I had to say something.

Neither of you deserves to suffer this way...sending good wishes to both of you.

they are easy to spot ..

I send you my good wishes too ...

I don't consider myself to be sanctimonious or self-righteous and hope I don't come across in that way but the SERENITY PRAYER which is something I know AA members often quote is a useful maxim to us all as we bump along in this complex life ...

God, grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

Courage to change the things I can,

and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Go for it!

My life has been profoundly affected by alcohol - my father and my brother both violent alcoholics - my ex partner .... none of them ever acknowledged that they had a problem with alcohol (or a problem masked by alcohol). However, a very good friend of mine (female) reached her 'rock bottom' four years ago and went to AA. She has earned the respect of all who know her by facing her demons and succeeding in maintaining her sobriety. She has turned her life around .... in an amazing way. She is an inspiration t me. I confess, I didn't think she would be able to do it ... but she has.

You can do it...

Love to you this Easter,

Teasle

Are they the sort of sick people that delight in making fun of another persons problems?

Or did it hit a nerve end with them. Could it be that they have problems that they don't wish to face and that this thread was in danger of discussing this ground?

Jon

I quit drinking a year and a half ago, cause I felt my life needed changing and sorting out and that was the first thing I needed to do. After 40,000 beers or so, (sixpack a day more or less for twenty years) I figure I'd pretty much had my quota and needed to get more done in my remaining productive years (being 42 and trying to switch from being a usually-unemployed carpenter to a usually-employed techie; a transition I'm still working on )

Like the vast majority of people who succeed in quitting drinking (or smoking) I did not join AA or any other group. And I meant to call up and get some counselling but I never did that either. When I quit it was more or less spontaneous, I was doing a lot of reading and online research in order to study what was happening to me, and work it out.

The first surprise I had was how difficult stopping wasn't. No shakes, no nausea, no physical symptoms whatsoever. (Until I stopped, I'd be into the beer by 11 a.m. most days at home, and desperate for a couple at lunch if I was working. That memory is, more than any other factor and there are many, what keeps me away from the stuff. I don't ever want to feel like that again.)

AA never interested me, partly because I'm a lifelong atheist and not interested in a religious-based program (although you will hear the standard line about how AA also welcomes atheists and agnostics, its sort of like pitying the sinners, not for me thanks); and secondly because if you try on those twelve steps, the first one is to "admit that you are powerless over alcohol."

With all due respect to the folks that this program has helped, I think that's a bunch of crap. If I was powerless over alcohol I'd still be drinking it. I firmly believe, that I quit drinking by finding my personal strength and resources, and utilizing them. That was a conviction I came to before I discovered the existence of some alternative-to-AA groups for which the primary tenets are just those two factors--first, they have a completely non-religiously-oriented recovery program, whatever their beliefs may be, and second, that they use their personal power instead of denying it. You can find out more about this approach at:

www.unhooked.com

I didn't join this group either, or particularly subscribe to their whole platform, but it helps to have support, no doubt about it; two weeks after I had my last beer, I started talking about it on a mailing list of old friends and that helped me a lot.

The peculiar thing you find, in this thread and in the world at large, is how successful AA has been at dominating the discussion, such that society equates sobriety with AA just like burgers and McDonalds. The thing is, people are different, their problems, needs and recovery processes are not all the same, and the AA "everyone follow these steps, and if you question them you're in denial, if you don't keep going to meetings you will relapse and die in the gutter" is actually rather cultlike in its circular logic.

If you look into the subject, you will soon discover that all is not as it appears; there is considerable medical and legal controversy about the effectiveness or lack thereof of the 12-step model, (not to mention its recent application to a host of other problems which are also defined as addictions although they are physiologically very different), the disease model, and whether problem drinkers or alcoholics can ever become moderate social drinkers again.

And this is the second thing that surprised me: when I'd tell people I quit drinking, they'd either say "Why?" or "Have you joined AA? and start to tell me about their involvement with a 12-step program for something or other. For me, the point was to quit drinking and improve my life, not join some club.

A couple of other net resources you should check out:

• The About.com Alcoholism home page--the guide Buddy T. is into AA but there's some good links, slightly buried under "alternative approaches" in the net section to other approaches

• The Stanton Peele Addiction Web Site--some interesting and controversial stuff, and lots of links to other academically-oriented addiction info.

  Whoa, long posting. I DO go on about this stuff.

  John E, join the Cat (if you aren't already a member) and drop me a personal if you want to discuss this further.

  There are many routes out of this swamp.

  Best,

  Bill Cameron aka Willie-O

John - reguardless of which road you decide to go down, I'll be thinking about you and wishing you the best. Feel free to contact me. Wesley S.

Cheers, Fortunato

Hi Jon. 'Fraid I disagree with you about the various flamers' motives here. These are obviously the same folks who've made prior appearences in threads that had nothing to do with alcohol, or AA, or anything related. I think his/her/their buttons get pushed by "sentimentality, plain and simple". The profanity and scatalogical content just strike me as one of the excesses that being anonymous fosters.

My own highly selfish best case scenario for Mudcat would be one where discussions like this (alcoholism) could take place without interruptions. I'm aware though that some find them absolutely out of place in a music site. Others here get VERY upset when things turn political, and are forever telling the rest to "stop posting here, at once!(personally, I think those discussions/arguements are usually fascinating) I'd love to see the music chats reflect what "I" consider folk music, and the opinions given based on some "investment". T'aint gonna happen the way I want it though, so I'll go with the flow til I find it doesn't interest me enough to stay.

Flaming is simply the price of of doing business on the net. I know some would like to think that folkies are too nice to "lose it" and take pot shots at others, but they're wrong. IN GENERAL, I've found the folk community pretty damned tolerant...but even folkies go ballistic at times.

Monitored (and paid) membership here would eliminate 90% of it. AND be WORTH it!

Rick

Alcoholism is VERY relevant to music. Alcohol and music are frequently "served" side by side in the same establishments. If you aspire to make your living by music - which is hard enough without an alcohol problem - it is even harder to be confronted with your temptation in your place of business. Although I don't want to mention any names, because I am not sufficiently informed about particular circumstances, I think it's a safe bet that alcohol has contributed to the early deaths of many folksingers. I remember seeing one famous and talented musician drink himself into a paralytic stupor at a party held in his honor. He is no longer with us. It behooves all of us to take alcoholism seriously and do what we can to prevent such tragedies.

I am not qualified to recommend any particular method for overcoming an alcohol problem. By all means, search for the best help you can find, but don't delay getting help until you have found the perfect helpers. A drowning person may need to reach for the closest lifeline, even if it isn't the best.

One thing to consider as you try to beat this demon - is there another problem hiding behind the drinking? I have been involved with some extremely talented musicians (it always comes back to music for me somehow) who self-destructed through drinking; some through drugs. What I found in some cases was that it was easier for them to say they failed because they drank then to face their deeper fears and problems. I'm not presuming to say this applies to you, and alcohol is a big enough problem on its own. But if you find yourself quitting and then backsliding, it may be time to dig a little deeper.

Good luck.

And she knows the pain I'm going through In this world inside my head 'Cause there's a devil in the bottle And it wants to see me dead

Be kinder to yourself, John. And do something kind for someone else today. Something simple and anonymous. You'll feel better.

To Jon Freeman: Your music makes me happy. I will continue to ask for the banjo. To hell with your neighbors. You did your anonymous good deed last night on "Hearme". Now take some credit for sharing yourself and your talent and feel better about yourself.

This past week fliers were passed out at Shea Stadium announcing "Battery Day" to honor John Rocker (Rocket?). My reaction was that it would be better to welcome him with absolute silence. Not a word; not a purchase of a hotdog or a beer or a tee shirt. I feel the same about the talented little boy who is misbehaving here. Ignore him and he will go away until he grows up. Then he may even be willing to share his talents with us.

DougR

I'm still here, and thanks to everyone who's given me advice, kind thoughts and encouragement.

I think however that I'll continue any further dialogue via private messages

Thanks to you all (apart from the wierd people)

John

Like Willie-O, I gave up drinking several (6+) years ago, at the age of 35, for personal reasons. I did not, and do not, consider myself an alcoholic; I simply saw no value in it any more, and recognized that it was a habit that was becoming more firmly entrenched in my life the longer I kept it up. Also like Willie-O, I was surprised at how easy it was -- for me, anyway. I do not claim that this is the same for everyone; I'm just lucky in that respect.

Since that time, I have continued to work as a part-time musician, which means that I typically spend at least one night a week in a bar, from early evening until the wee hours of the morning. It is a strange experience to be stone-cold sober, but surrounded by drunks (sorry if that term offends, but the "regulars" in the establishments I play at are drunks, by anyone's definition). It makes me realize what I used to look, act and sound like when I was drinking. I don't miss it at all -- again, I'm lucky that way.

I would love it if there was a way I could continue working as a musician without spending so much time in bars. By "working as a musician," I mean putting on a professional, well-presented performance, and getting paid for it, on a regular basis. But I find it very difficult to find non-drinking venues that provide the infrastructure, steady work, and decent pay that I get in the bars. I'd be interested to hear if others are on the horns of the same dilemma, and if they've found a way to practice their craft/profession in non-alcoholic environments. Any thoughts?

Our flamer, first, has had some experience with 12 step programs, as he is aware that members are not to identify themselves publicly.

I'll go on to say that my experience in Al-Anon has taught me that 12stepping is a very valuable program, AND that there is a hell of a lot of bad program out there.

since program has been quoted all over the place, another slogan is, "Take what you like, and leave the rest."

The best bet is to find a Very Large group (hopefully you are in a city) where there is a wide variety of opinion; then you don't get cooped up with bad programmers who insist on reciting the Lord's Prayer (in violation of program principles, I might add).

"Ecstasy" came up somewhere above; it is a designer drug, and those who have told me to try it should the opportunity present itself are without exception the most fucked up people I have ever met.

And those who insisted they had to use -- whatever -- because it helped their music, or writing, were just plain hooked.

Would Coleridge have given us "Kubla Khan" without opium? Maybe not, but he would have given us other poems, and lived longer to give us more of them.

Off my soapbox now.

MA

For those of you who are curious and want to see what Joe deleted and what triggered Moonchild's nervous breakdown over it, click here.

(It's really quite tame. All that matzoh meal and kreplach soup must have triggered a psychotic reaction.)

As far as choosing a recovery program if that's what one wants to try, I would urge anyone to do some research on the breadth of philosophies that are out there before committing to a particular group. (My criticism is not limited to AA--the recovery group/program/counselling field seems to have a lot of conflict between the different groups and professionals, and it doesn't seem you can rely on much balanced information from within a group. That is, you _might_ get it, you might not. Sorry MAG, no intention to offend, but you've just about made the point for me.)

By the way, just to clarify, the _quitting_ was easy--much easier than I had expected. (You may be lucky like me and get a long way down the road towards physical addiction, without reaching that point. If you think you have a real problem with it, it's better to deal with it sooner than later.) Maintaining that decision and figuring out new ways to live my life--that part is hard.

W-O

I liked what you said before about the AA tenet that you must admit that you're powerless over alcohol. I always thought that was crap, too. Seems backwards to me--if you're powerless over it, how are you ever going to get control over it? But I suppose what AA wants you to do is substitute an Almighty Something Else for the Almighty Alcohol. I am an agnostic justthisside of atheism so I too, disagree with this powerlessness stuff. I know AA has helped SO many people and I think that's great, of course--but for people who don't go with that Higher Power idea, I do think that looking for an alternative to AA would be a good idea. Thanks for broadening that horizon.

One little notion I've found useful is the concept of the addictive voice. Works like this: when you feel that craving for alcohol, even though it seems to be coming from inside of you, it IS NOT YOU. It's the Addictive Voice talking. You can just take that message, fold it up and put in in your pocket, because it isn't from you, its just directed _to_ you. (In fact it's spam!)

Also, the craving, physiologically, is a sugar craving. So eat a chocolate bar or a donut. Really works! It passes.

It only gets easier though if you quit stone cold. If you try to cut down gradually you are making your life very difficult because all the time you're going to have to decide "can I have a drink now?" I never had any luck with that approach.

There's an approach called Moderation Management which promotes controlled drinking rather than complete abstinence, but I'm happy enough with the results of the latter that I don't care to risk messing myself up for the sake of having a beer once a week or something. Might be helpful for people concerned about their alcohol habits but unwilling to stop.

W-O

Alcoholics have a physiological handicap, they are physically incapable of stopping at one drink (this trait seems to be at least partially hereditary). They can never become social drinkers, it's essentially all or nothing. Moderate drinking is not possible for them.

Alcohol abusers, on the other hand, are theoretically capable of using alcohol in moderation. Whether any given individual can accomplish this depends on various factors, and many are wise not to tempt fate, but it is within the realm of possibility.

How one reliably determines the difference between the two situations I don't know, other than trial and error.

Other than that, I very rarely get blind drunk but I find it very difficult to relax without alcohol inside me and I tend to just keep topping up, the amount I need seems to get higher, my consumption increases until I say stop and then I cut right down agan and go round in the same circle.

Just to try to exlain, on one hand, it is like having a demon inside you shouting "drink, drink..." and coupled the mental battle, a tension, fear and nervousness inside me and although I know it isn't the answer, having a drink puts a stop to all of this so eventually I give in.

Jon

Guess it gave me enough false confidence to face bar audiences night after night. (too bad I waited til the age of 40 to kick THAT habit!) What got me back to my first love of folk music was reading a LOT of Quentin Crisp. Now THAT guy gave me something worthwhile...with no hangovers!

Rick

Hereditary-alcoholism theorists suggest that the longer alcohol has been a part of a culture, the smaller the proportion of alcoholics because they have less evolutionary success. A tenuous theory. The cultural factors theory explains the same data by pointing out cultures which ritualize the social or religious use of alcohol, but strongly discourage excessive consumption and drunkenness (Jewish and Italian society are the usual ones cited--both have very low rates of identified alcoholism.) North American alcohol culture has been strongly influenced by the temperance movement which advocated an all-or-nothing approach. You know, zero-tolerance. Some people need to not drink any alcohol, ever, but as a universal cure-all, it's a strategy lacking in breadth.

But if you drink a lot of alcohol for a long period of time, your physiology changes--if like me you have always had a high tolerance for alcohol, you are probably at more risk of developing a severe problem with it than if you get sick every time you drink. The thing is, eventually your liver stops working right, and instead of being processed normally and released gradually, the alcohol is metabolized straight into the bloodstream--and that's when you may get to the point of intoxication and unpredictable behaviour after one or two drinks.

By the way, thanks Dharmabum.

I feel like I've said a lot here, and maybe we should let this thread drop off since John E decided to go to private discussion--anyone who wants to keep this discussion going care to start a new thread?

Best of luck & positive reinforcement to everyone working through this issue in their lives.

Willie-O

Clearly AA is an organization that will help you. I realize that some peopl harbor anger toward expressions of faith in any form, but even if you have little or no faith yourself, AA is still the place I would urge you to start. I hope you would not let your personal religious convictions stand in the way of letting this organization help you.

In my own experience (I do not drink at all, now) - I do not believe I was alcoloholic; though I drank 1 to 3 beers each day for years, and occasional party days of excess - I loved beer and never have wanted to give it up, but at a routine physical discovered that I have a very high tri-glyceride level, a condition that will cost me years of my life. Every drink I take now shortens my life. It was as easy choice; I gave it up immediately, and have never regretted it. I have also been surprised how easy it was to go without it.

Until recently I had hoped I could reach that exalted position......regretfully my body would not permit it.

I have all of the proper motivating factors but the genetics stand in the way IMHO.

Drinking is given to all men alcoholism to but a few.

We need not make these gifted individuals outcasts. They have much to give society and one of their gifts is their own euphoria and ability to consume.

It is the full enjoyment of the gifts of god. Only the imperfect can not reach their heights.

They may not make good drivers, lovers, or parents but what the hay- those things are work- It is only work which gets in the way of the true alcoholic.

We need to set them free of the social stigmas and provide them with the safe environments they deserve.

Conrad

Alcoholics should be credited for: 1. Child and wife abuse 2. Reckless and dangerous driving habits DUI 3. Insulting demeanor and behavior to others 4. Irresponsible public displays 5. If performers, blatant disregard for the audience 6. Instigating barroom brawls 7. Disregard for the feelings of other people 8. Corrupting and degrading influences on others 9. Self-destructive personal habits 10. Occasional dissheveled appearance 11. Prevarication and dissembling 12. Supporting the alcohol industry = organized crime 13. Advocating a gateway drug 14. Working in tandem with tobacco users 15. Fostering the myth that alcohol is good for you. 16. Fostering the myth that good works can't be done without it.

I think that they should have a special place......

How about the Betty Ford Clinic and AA, both organizations that are doing a wonderful job.

Frank

2. Reckless and dangerous driving habits DUI Why in the world should an alcholic ever have to drive? Of course they should be driven. In a limmo with a bar if at all possible. And they should never be driven to a "dry place"

3. Insulting demeanor and behavior to others Alcoholics should be respected in all instances as would any other "special Person" I have seen quite a few seat wetting and drooling senior citizens who yell at the top of their lungs - but they we must worship! The same with alcoholics. Just learn to be tolerant.

4. Irresponsible public displays Re read 3- remember we do not need to force alcoholics to leave their palaces but we make them live in the streets.

5. If performers, blatant disregard for the audience I have seen perfectly respectible tea totaling performers respect the audience and often. One of the greatist sins is for these tea totalers to always use electronic amplification even in small spaces. IMHO an instance of number 4 above. And there are other sins to many to count.

6. Instigating barroom brawls The last barroom brawl I saw was conducted by sober folk.

7. Disregard for the feelings of other people Alcoholics are not people - they are the elect! Again see 5 above. It is infact a gross disregard not to join the alcholic in rounds- a lack of reciprocity and hospitaltiy....

8. Corrupting and degrading influences on others dont make me laugh! nothing good about sugar dependancy!

9. Self-destructive personal habits

Only god gives life and the same takes it away. by virtue of life all personal habits are self destructive. Who are you some sort of imortal?

10. Occasional dissheveled appearance I have seen wonderful dishevelment upon very dry and teatotaling school teachers.....you must be nuts!

11. Prevarication and dissembling 12. Supporting the alcohol industry = organized crime 13. Advocating a gateway drug 14. Working in tandem with tobacco users 15. Fostering the myth that alcohol is good for you. 16. Fostering the myth that good works can't be done without it.

I will not respond to 11-16 except to say that many of the most wonderful artists and musicians and people of this world have been alcholics and many of the worst have been tea totalers.

Get a life- beter yet- get a drnk!

Conrad

Alcoholism leads to an enourmous amount of misery, both to the drinker and those close to him / her

I'm not sure why you've responded in this way - but if you'd seen the misery first hand - you may well have posted differently.

Regards

Ed

Conrad

If this thread is anything to go by - a lot more people offer support than are mean...

Peter T,

Wow! Someone who reads Gregory Bateson! I have to say I find some of his stuff hard going. I have read the piece in 'Steps' that you mention - but I still started this thread...

Mind you, in what he says about 'the pattern that connects' I can only say, yes - he's right....

John

Conrad is a famous woman-basher and bar-promoter on another discussion group to which we both belong.

I drank to excess from 15-22...quite a lot. I decided on my own to stop.

For a brief time a friend convinced me to go to 12-step. I think there are good things about these programs, but that they are only for some people. I also found alot of unhealthy, unhappy people who had been clean and in the program for a long time. And who also did not tolerate other viewpoints. Many times I was told that if I questioned aspects of the program...it was "my disease talking". I was pretty self aware at that point, and did not agree with that sentiment. I stopped going to 12-step and decided to see a counselor.

I went to a life counselor and spent alot of time maturing and learning how to enjoy life without substances. After being abstinent for 11 years, my counselor suggested that I wasn't an alcoholic and that I might be ready to try moderate drinking.

I did, and have been doing well ever since. I don't drink everyday and I limit the amount I drink because I like to feel good. And being drunk and hungover dont feel good. I now have many friends who drink responsibly or not at all. I don't hang out with people who are drunks.

For me, it was about maturing and learning to take personal responsibilty for my actions. I'm glad I took the time off from drinking, and I would do it again if it ever became a problem again.

Food, alcohol, drugs, skiing, jogging, etc....all can kill you if used in excess, but they are pleasurable if used in *moderation*....and they can be used in moderation...

To the original poster....if you cannot stop, get help, it's out there. In fact, it would probably be a good idea to stop for some time, and work on the underlying problems that are contributing to your drinking. But look carefully at all the different options for getting help. 12-step may work for you but it is not the only way...and every person is different, and different people need different strategies for overcoming problems.

Check out the Stanton Peele site for alternative viewpoints to 12-step groups....

Sincerely, Toad

1. Since woman and children are anathema to alcoholics, it is reasonable to assume that alcoholics show no respect for their origins.

2. Alcoholics who drive do not like to assume responsibilty for their actions. Lack of personal responsibility is a hallmark of this disease.

3. Alcoholics should be respected as people but their actions should not be tolerated or condoned. I think the same could be said for murderers, robbers and criminals. I will go with the fact that alcoholism is a sickness, a disease and is often uncontrollable until help is seeked. Even those that defend alcoholism are in dire need of professional help.

4. It might be a good idea for some alcoholics to be incarcerated for a period of time until they are restored to sanity.

5. It's not a good idea to generalize about performer behavior toward an audience, but I've rarely seen a drunken performer who has done a great show with respect for their audiences. There is an abuse of sound reinforcement at times on the part of many performers but this is a different topic.

6. Barroom brawls involve alcohol. There is no other reason for them to take place.

7. The alcoholic often drinks with others to keep from having meaningful relationships. It is a psuedo intimacy that is in lieu of real human contact. There is a certain supercillious attitude that accompanies this disease which makes them fly at the wrong altitude.

8. Sugar dependency is a problem. The alcoholic is often addicted to sugar. It's easy to transfer addictions.

9. To blame alcohol addiction on "God" is an often used as a defensive ploy. It reinforces the inability to take responsibility for alcoholic actions.

10. Dishevelment is particularly ugly on a drunk. It is accompanied by foul odors, misplaced anger and can be likened to a diseased person who has refused medical help.

There are many artists who are wonderful regardless of their disease. But I believe that this has little do do with their wonderfulness.

Frank

If it's fun or just plain funny and it deosn't harm anybody else then it is okay - EVEN if other people think it is harming you!

Most people in their younger years choose to do things that their family now refuse to admit that they did when they were young. Some choose to continue into middle or even old age.

No matter how often poeple tell you they have there is no way for them to have a common frame of reference to your particular use of any particular substance. It's entriely personal.

If you think any one thing is taking too firm a hold in your life stop it for one month. If you can't seek help to do so.

Some things I am certain of...

Prohibition endangers lives by handing substance provision to criminals. Censure drives people towards behaviours such as secrecy that can turn them into addicts. People will seek altered states of consciousness whether it be through exercise - mental or physical or substance use - no matter what others say, think or do. Any other world view is simply naive.

I am interested to hear the religeous right promote virginity as a cure for AIDS. Fill a young mind up with the need to grow and explore then wait until it reaches a stage where sexual drive is probably only exceeded by curiosity - then stifle it! I am awed by such creative thinking - NOT!

Society's attitudes are as much guilty of creating subtancew abuse as the victim is. Addicts are medically unwell they are NOT criminals!

My £0 0s 0d...

Hyp.

1. Child and wife abuse

Even female alcholics? Besides that child and wife abusers should take the credit for what they do regardless of whether they are alcoholics or not.

2. Reckless and dangerous driving habits DUI

True, it is hard not to drive under the influence without a drink but you don't have to be an alcholoic to drink and drive on the other hand I am an alcholohic but I don't drive through choice.

3. Insulting demeanor and behavior to others

OK Frank, I not had a drink today and I think you are talking through your arse. I often post here after 8 or more pints without being insulting. Again, it is a persons nature that makes them behave as they do after drink, not the drink or any part of an alchololic condition.

4. Irresponsible public displays

Drunks may put on these displays but Frank, alcholosim is a condition, people like myself just keep topping up all day. It is more a matter of keeping a certain amount of alcholol on the blood stream than getting drunk. I can think of many non-alcholics who are far more likely to do something irresponsible after a few drinks that I would be.

5. If performers, blatant disregard for the audience

I have occasionally done paid work, oddly enough I have always rehearsed, turned up on time and in a fit condition to play. i wish I could say the same for some of my non-alcholic partners. Again Frank, you are talking about something you know nothing about and you are trying to define a persons nature by the fact they drink.

6. Instigating barroom brawls

Well Frank, in around 25 years of drinking in bars, I have never instegated a fight and I have only got involved on a couple of occasions. On these occasions, it has been to help split a fight up rather than to join in. I will admit that the majority of fights I have witnesed have been caused by somebody under the influence of some substance or other but in my experience, they are normally caused by kids who can't handle what ever they are taking rather than by hardened alchoholics.

7. Disregard for the feelings of other people

Like I say Frank... no I won't this time.

8. Corrupting and degrading influences on others

What are you on Frank?

9. Self-destructive personal habits

Agreed.

10. Occasional dissheveled appearance

Agreed.

11. Prevarication and dissembling

Maybe - maybe not.

12. Supporting the alcohol industry = organized crime

Please explain.

13. Advocating a gateway drug

Or getting caught up addicted to a substance that has been legal all my like. Perhaps you should point you finger somewhere other than at the victims Frank.

14. Working in tandem with tobacco users

I smoke tobacc but I don't see what you are getting at.

15. Fostering the myth that alcohol is good for you.

I believe it is in SMALL doses but not to excess.

16. Fostering the myth that good works can't be done without it.

I've never heard that said from any alchoholic I know. Where did you get that myth from Frank?

Jon

It's funny how this topic brings out extremes--it's kind of like the blind man describing the elephant I guess, except that everyone seems a lot more certain about their perspective. But prohibitionist sentiment has had a huge influence on the way we view the problem, when it is a problem. And that ain't necessarily a good thing.

W-O

Frank, alcoholism is a DISEASE, not a personality flaw. I hate stereotyping and prejudice based on it. Believe what you want, but most of what you've said destroys your credibility on the subject with me. You make it sound like your beliefs are facts, and they are anything but.

I hate drink drivers, I knelt in the road beside a friend one night as she bled to death (at the age of 17) hit by a drunk driver...... it's a picture I'll never forget, nor the look on her mother's face as I told her what had happened......

But your comments were too general, and hurtful to people here who are asking for help...

alison

I'll leave others to assess the effect of bigotry and prejudice on those more vulnerable. At the end of the day however becoming clean/sober and maintaining that state is a personal matter and often a life threatening one. Let's not make it any harder for sufferers to achieve that goal.

As I understand it AA welcomes visitors to many meetings around the world if anyone wants to experience this part of the real world close up. The Alcoholics Anonymous phone number should be in your local phone book.

Regards, John

I appreciate your comments. Lets take 'em one at a time. Hypeeabid.Drugs and alcohol may not be fun and funny and do hurt others.

Jon, 1. Female alcoholics are also capable of abuse. Husbands and children. 2. Congratulations, Jon. You are apparently a responsible person. You have the guts to call yourself an alcoholic and are working on it. You have my admiration.

3. Alcoholic addiction is a state of mind. It can manifest whether you are drinking or not. It is generally associated with hostility, hence the comment about my talking through my "arse". I know more about it than you give me credit for.

4. I'll take your word for it.

5. Again, I know more about it than you give me credit for. I know that alcoholics are not necessarilly irresponsible all the time. But their responsibility rests with their sobriety. When you tell me that you are responsible to an audience, I take your word for it. but I stand by my statement.

6. Sorry Jon, I don't buy the "hardened alcoholic" statement.

8. Usta' be there. Used stuff. Total waste. "What am I on?" sounds like a hostile statement.

Re: liquor industry and organized crime, I don't believe that this requires too much explanation.

Tobacco and alcohol are addictive substances. For an alcoholic, there is no such thing as a little drink being good for them.

One thing I have noticed, however, that the alcoholic is adamant about defending his/her position until they make an important breakthrough.

Jeri, your point is well-taken about generalizations. I agree. Sanctimonius pronouncements are futile. On the other hand, making excuses for an alcoholic is also a disease.

Alison, helping people is fine. But making excuses is another thing that is not helpful. But encouragement to people like Jon who are trying to do something about it is helpful. It's far more hurtful to make excuses.

I agree with John. AA is a wonderful organization. I have been to meetings and have seen the great things that they do.

Frank

"One thing I have noticed, however, that the alcoholic is adamant about defending his/her position until they make an important breakthrough"

One thing I have noticed is that some people make sweeping statements before realising that they need modification.

Jon

I think you are failing to draw a line between users and people who have fallen into addicitve diseases...

Secondly, you dismiss all the other points made in the last posting because you don't like the first one.

I still stick with the fact that prohibition and condemnation breed as many problems as they cure.

Sweden and Norway both have restrictive alchohol regimes and some of the highest alchoholism rates in Europe and Scnadinavia. The US import 50 times the amount of Marijuana illegally than the UK yet has only 5 times the population and the strictest drug laws in the developed world.

Don't get me wrong... I have a strong degree of personal empathy with people who need to draw strong lines in their lives to get through the problems brought on by addiction. I find these life standards brave and uncompromising and the spirit needed to stick to them an inspiration.

All I am saying is that the problem of addicitive behaviour is not helped by current attitudes from central government in the developed world. Medical treatments programmes are often more about maintenance on lower risk substitutes... Help organisations are voluntary and receive minimal government aid... and we push those that need our help into the background with the law.

My £0 0s 0d - again

Hyp

I don't believe the problem is other people who are not alcoholics. I don't believe that the problem is the government or attitudes of others. I belive that the responsibility for the problem rests with the alcoholic behavior and it's being condoned by well-meaning enablers.

I was hoping for a rational dialogue on this issue but I think it's too highly charged for sensible discussion.

I want to thank you all for demonstrating just how insidious this disease is and to what lengths the alcoholic and their co-dependants will go to protect their life-style.

Now for me it's on to other things.

Thank you,

Frank

You comment on a little hostility from me. Come on Frank do you really expect to suggest that you can, by implication, accuse me of being a child and wife abuser, suggest that I have an insulting nature, start fights in pubs, etc without attracting a little hostility. Get real Frank, this is nothing to do with alcholism. Non alcoholics would be angered by the same suggestions that you made.

Protect their life style? You are full of shit. Having to have a drink to calm down and relax, etc, is not a happy condition are you so blind and stupid to think that I enjoy waking up feeling ill and knowing that the easiest solution is to have another drink because then I will feel OK. I want out, am trying to get out and I have received helpful advice from people here and there are Mudcatters who were aware that I was struggling and wanted out before this thread started.

Your comments are worthless and inaccurate and I shall be grateful to see you leave this subject alone at least until you are able to separate fact from your own predjudice.

Jon

You're not paying attention, Toad....!!

You are lying!

Even if no one else does - I know which threads I posted...

you are very small

Hope I got my point across. MM

I applaud your efforts for "wanting to get out". Congratulations. I wish for you nothing but the best.

Frank

Jon

What did you think I was being 'defensive' about.

I assumed you meant the marquee message by 'Guest,threadie' (the first one).

I was not being defensive about anything in this thread except to say to my unworthy 'imposter' that I did not agree with it's assumption (which it attributed to me), that Alcoholism and music were not related.

Now do you geddit?????.....