This day that honors the memory of the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust.

The day also pays tribute to the Partisans who resisted the Nazis.

dammit! DON'T speak for me, "Guest"!

Just because there have been no responses doesn't mean no interest or thoughts provoked by a posting. In particular *I* know I was grateful for this, as I did not know until now there was any formal recognition such as Yom HaShoah. 60 years is still within the lifespan of many people alive today. Just because it happened 60 years ago, is that any reason to foget the atrocities that were committed?

As Sorcha noticed, I said May when I meant to say April. And as MMario found, the actual day of Yom HaShoah is this Thursday (April 19) sundown through Friday at sundown.

Alex

And be very, very careful about assigning collective guilt. That kind of thinking has been used to justify atrocity after atrocity throughout history. "They hurt me, so I hurt them!" Except that the person you hurt had nothing to do with the hurt you received.

No matter what ethnic, national, or cultural group you belong to, you can find some member of it who killed somebody else. If someone took that fact and generalized it by saying that you were a member of a group of murderers, then used that generalization as an excuse to kill you, do you think they would be justified in doing it?

Alex

-- Gary

MOURNER'S KADDISH An English Translation

Glorified and sanctified be God's great name throughout the world which He has created according to His will. May He establish His kingdom in your lifetime and during your days, and within the life of the entire House of Israel, speedily and soon; and say, Amen.

May His great name be blessed forever and to all eternity.

Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honored, adored and lauded be the name of the Holy One, blessed be He, beyond all the blessings and hymns, praises and consolations that are ever spoken in the world; and say, Amen.

May there be abundant peace from heaven, and life, for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who creates peace in His celestial heights, may He create peace for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

The Meaning of Kaddish

Having read the translation of the Kaddish Prayer, one should realize that, although Jewish Law requires that the Kaddish be recited during the first eleven months following the death of a loved one by prescribed mourners, and on each anniversary of the death (the "Yahrtzeit"), and by custom in the State of Israel by all Jews on the Tenth of Tevet ("Yom HaKaddish HaKlali'), there is no reference, no word even, about death in the prayer!

The theme of Kaddish is, rather, the Greatness of G-d, Who conducts the entire universe, and especially his most favored creature, each individual human being, with careful supervision. In this prayer, we also pray for peace - from apparently the only One Who can guarantee it - peace between nations, peace between individuals, and peace of mind.

Paradoxically, this is, in fact, the only true comfort in the case of the loss of a loved one. That is, to be able to view the passing of the beloved individual from the perspective that that person's soul was gathered in, so to speak, by the One Who had provided it in the first place.

As Beruriah, the great wife of Rabbi Meir, consoled her husband, upon the death of their two sons, with words to this effect, "A soul is comparable to an object which was given to us - to each individual, to his or her parents and loved ones, to guard and watch over for a limited time. When the time comes for the object to be returned to its rightful owner, should we not be willing to return it? With regard to our sons, let us therefore consider the matter as 'The L-rd gave, and the L-rd took back, may the Name of the L-rd be Blessed!' "

troll *** BTW, I'm NOT Jewish ****

Alex"

Alex,

What is your basis for this? Have you ever been to Holocaust memorial ceremony? Have you ever to a Holocaust museum?

Last night at my synagogue in Haifa, we had a Yom Hashoah program that mourned Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, political prisoners and others murdered in the Holocaust. All were mourned.

Perhaps you made your statement in the vaccum of ignorance. If so, perhaps you should do some research before offering an opinion.

In another thread, I detected anti-Semitic attitudes by you. I was convinced then, after discussing the issue with you, that you were not an anti-Semite. Now, I'm not so sure.

Imagine my surprise when I went to Germany, and in the museum in the basement of the Reichstag learned that ELEVEN MILLION people died in the gas chambers.

This was a completely new revelation to me. The American School System, with its built-in holocaust history element, over the course of 11 years, failed to teach me what the Germans did in five seconds: 5 million non-Jews died in the Holocaust.

That's what I base my claim on.

Alex

The answer to this is simple: the Jews do, and nobody else.

I've been to the Holocaust museum here in Dallas many times, and the guides always mention the gentiles who died. They also have a permanent memorial to the non-Jews who died.

I remember them, and I'm no Jew.

Or are you saying this proves I'm a Jew? Strange logic.

Alex

"The only problem I have with Holocaust Remembrance is that it tends to bifurcate the holocaust and only look at the death of Jews. 5 million non-Jews died in the gas chambers also. Who remembers them?"

Anyone with the intelligence to read, look and listen, and the curiosity to want to be informed.

Rick

I finally had to have my editor contact her and invoke the protected copyright law. By way of explaining her behavior (her theft of my work and reprinting it without my permission) she decided it was a good idea to defend her revisionist stance to my editor, explaining how her research has borne out her findings etc. Sickening, and scary.

In fairness to Irwin, he did not say what you quoted him as saying. He was himself quoting someone else and responding.

troll

I've just written an article on Yom Ha'shoah.

I don't know how to do the "blue clicky thing" but here's the link:

http://home.att.net/~UUSNews/yom.htm

It tells a bit about the holiday and also details the major "other holocausts" of the 20th century. If you think Hitler was the biggest name in mass murder, think again, by most accounts he was THIRD.

Also those who have bickered on this thread, please remember what yall are bickering about. Is it really important compared to the numbers of innocent lives that have been destroyed?

pax yall

you should know that the public schools in this country dish out all sorts of partial information and call it the totality

Ah but who writes the curriculum? Surely the ADL has some say? I find it nearly impossible to believe that no Jewish agency whatever has any oversight or provides no input concerning the content of the Holocaust units the schools teach.

Peg, what a horrible thing! Holocaust deniers are certainly a breed apart. Of what species, it's hard to guess.

Yes, alas, Adolf can't hold a candle to Stalin for sheer numbers of people destroyed. We're talking factors of at least 3, and maybe 4. But it's all equally heinous and none of it should ever be forgotten.

I'm not sure I could "take" Schindler's list. Like Firecat visiting the concentration camp, I'm afraid of what my nervous system wouldn't be able to handle.

Alex

Irwin In Israel suggested that you do some research before offering opinions based in ignorance. It was good advice.

I cringed, first in anger, then in sadness, when I read your latest statement:

"Ah but who writes the curriculum? Surely the ADL has some say? I find it nearly impossible to believe that no Jewish agency whatever has any oversight or provides no input concerning the content of the Holocaust units the schools teach."

I'm sure you don't consider yourself an anti-Semite. However, casting such aspersions with no knowledge of fact, is an anti-Semitic act. Your statement carries the age-old messages and innuendos of Jewish control and Jewish conspiracy that have long been the tools of anti-Semites.

troll

Because of your message, I decided to see just what the ADL (the Anti-Defamation League) has to say about the Holocaust.

I found a section of their website with a teaching guide about the Holocaust that is specifically for children. In its explanation of the Holocaust, which you can find for yourself at http://www.adl.org/children_holocaust/about_holocaust1.html, it's opening paragraph says:

"The Holocaust was the systematic persecution and annihilation of more than 6 million Jews as a central act of state by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Although millions of others, such as Romani, Sinti, homosexuals, the disabled and political opponents of the Nazi regime, were also victims of persecution and murder, only the Jews were singled out for total extermination."

As you can see, the ADL does teach that millions of others were persecuted and murdered by the Nazi regime.

"I'm not sure I could "take" Schindler's list. Like Firecat visiting the concentration camp, I'm afraid of what my nervous system wouldn't be able to handle."

Just get a box of Kleenex and do it anyway. It's not all negative. Here was a man who never did anything great or self-less in his whole life, before or after. But for just one time he did an extraordinary thing. The film points out that only 4,000 Jews live in Poland today. The Schindler Jews and their descendants number 6,000.

A Holocaust museum is also not all negative. The one in Dallas memorializes "rescuers", also. In addition to the many individuals, it includes one (but only one!) country: Denmark, and one (but only one) town: Le Chambon-sur-Ligne. It's takes away some of the pain to realize that when individuals and communities _want_ to do something, they can.

BTW, it's a common school field trip in Dallas to take students to the Holocaust museum. I think the children know more about it than their parents.

There is a tendency among some (I'm not saying that you fall into this group) to brand anybody an anti-semite who says anything that disagrees with the actions of the nation of Israel, or of some famous Jewish group like the BB or specifically the ADL. To me this sort of thing doesn't help anything, and just makes matters worse.

Nor am some conspiracy nut (I HATE all conspiracy theories, as a matter of fact), nor do I believe the nonsense about the Jews owning all the banks, media, whatever. I've read real anti-semitic propaganda. I know what ZOG stands for. It's vomitous stuff, full of venom and hatred and small-mindedness (and lots and lots of historical nonsense, which is to say bullsh*t).

But I don't think that believing that curriculum-writers would get help from Jewish agencies (most probably the ADL) to plan a Holocaust curriculum falls into the same category as believing that Jews run the world. It's just common sense.

If I were writing a curriculum about Catholics, I'd ask a Catholic for help, or at least to check my work for innacuracies or unconcious slant. If I were writing a curriculum about Hindus or Buddhists, again I'd ask a Buddhist or a Hindu (or agency thereof) to check what I'd done to make sure it covered it in a way they felt was adequate.

Thus if I were writing a curriculum about the Shoah, *I* certainly would ask the ADL to make sure I had covered all the bases.

I would be willing to wager that I have close to 20 books in my personal library just about the Shoah, and although I haven't read them all (one must pace oneself with such gut-wrenching material) I have read among other books The War Against the Jews so I am fairly well educated about this issue, as Americans go. I will continue to read the others as time and intestinal fortitude permit.

I'm encouraged to see the ADL doesn't totally forget the non-Jews that the Nazis singled out for genocide. But saddened that they don't appear (from what you have posted) to give the number, and further that they try to draw a thick black line between the groups "Jews" and "Everybody Else". Granted "The Final Solution" was first designed with the Jews in mind, and that is horrible (and alas! oh-too-understandable given the long history of European anti-semitism).

But were the Nazis really just hoping to thin the population of (say) the Rom? Or were they maybe trying to totally wipe them out too? Of course there were fewer Gypsies than Jews in pre-ww2 Europe so the numbers aren't nearly as impressive. But genocide is genocide.

Which is all I have been trying to say all along. I am sorry if it has sometimes seemed I was trying to say more. Why didn't I find out about the other 5 million until I got to Germany? The emotional impact of the other 5 million on me, and why they should have been left out of the American school curriculum (at least in the 1970s, when I was its patient), is what I have been trying to address here.

I am encouraged that the Kaddish remembers all the victims of the Shoah. Unfortunately few gentile schoolkids ever get to be present at a Kaddish (forgive me if I've got the grammar wrong; I'm not entirely sure how to use the word properly!). Further I absolutely love what has been done for "righteous Gentiles" by the nation of Israel (as much as I disagree with many of their anti-Palestinian policies, as I have expressed on other threads here).

My daughter and I saw a presentation at her Jr. High School by a Dutch man who along with his mother was hidden, during the war, by a gentile farmer's family. He went back to find them about 40 years after the war, but the man and his wife had died. Still, he persisted and found a daughter and had the man and his wife proclaimed "Righteous Gentiles" posthumously, and the remaining family members were awarded a placque and I believe a cash reward by the Nation of Israel in a ceremony in Israel. The man's whole story was very moving.

Troll: I am NOT saying the Holocaust should not be taught. I would like to see the Federal government actually FUND the things they force the states to do, but that is a more general question not specifically related to the WW2 Holocaust. I would also like the Ukrainian famines to be taught, as well as what Pol Pot did in Cambodia. Nobody's genocide should trump anybody else's IMHO.

Bonnie, you are of course right. This is the reason I keep reading books about the Shoah. Unfortunately when I was in Germany (this was between my junior and senior years of high school) my time was totally controlled by the Paedogogische Austausch Dienst, and visiting a concentration camp was not part of the package. If I ever get back to middle Europe I really do want to visit a concentration camp.

Thanks everybody who wrote.

Alex

I did not say you were an anti-Semite. In fact, I quite clearly said that I was sure you did not consider yourself one.

You made innuendos about Jews without bothering to find out if they were true. In looking through Mudcat, I found another thread where you castigate Jews because you object to the actions of the Israeli government.

For someone with as many books about the Holocaust as you claim to have, you show incredible ignorance about the Holocaust and about the Jewish people.

Also, the Jews of Europe had family elsewhere in the world who began asking what happened to them. It's natural that the big news story at the end of the war would have been the answer to that question: what happened to the Jews. Remember that the full truth only came out slowly, in stages. Early on, the figure of 6 million Jews got registered in people's psychies as "the" number.

As for the other genocides, we probably pay more attention to all of them now because the Jews have continued to confront us with the importance of caring and remembering. To respond to Yom Ha'Shoah with, "What about the others?" is a testimony to the good it does. It's a valid question which should be asked and acted upon. Yom Ha'Shoah is doing what it's intended to do by stimulating us to ask it.

I wonder why he needs to stress his whiteness.

Of course, history is full of examples of the cruelty of mankind. In this regard, the Holocaust is but another example. The wholesale slaughter of the Jewish people is unforgivable, but for me the thing that makes the Holocaust stand out is the speed with which the German people bought into the Nazi message of hatred and became silent or active accomplices to the horror.

I keep returning to the idea that if the Holocaust can happen in Germany, it can happen in the U.S. or Canada or Australia or Africa or anywhere at all. It's because most of us are sheep, easily (mis)led and not too particular about questioning the truth of what we are told. It's too easy for us to believe that tragedy or persecution of some other group happens because that group shares some imagined flaw that accounts for their misfortune. We protect the few miserable possessions that we believe establish our value in society while we quickly forget the moral attributes that define who we wish to become.

I remember when Ronald Reagen first came to power in the U.S. Our country was on pretty good terms with the Soviet Union. We had cultural exchanges, industrial and agricultural exchanges, and the people of the U.S. had a generally optimistic attitude about the Soviet people. Very soon after Reagen took office he began talking about the Soviet Union as the "Evil Empire." I remember thinking that no one was going to buy that characterization and that the press would surely have a field day with it. To my amazement, he kept repeating the reference over and over until the press began picking up the reference as well. Before long it was the Evil Empire everywhere you looked. No one seemed to notice the change or the speed with which the U.S. population bought into the change. I don't mean to be taking a stand on the accuracy of that characterization, it's just that it was surprising how quickly an entire nation could be reoriented.

It can happen here.

It's so easy for unscrupulous leaders (I guess that would be all of them) to turn our attention away from the "man behind the curtain" by creating an enemy for us to dispise. It's much easier to stir up hatred of a people than to inspire trust and compassion and politicians always go for the quick solution. In the U.S. the press has completely abdicated its role as doubter and investigator. It prints and reports any sort of statments it receives from politicians seemingly without question. No attempt is made to verify the veracity of press releases. Muckraking and investigative reporting have disappeared entirely.

So who will question? Who will stand up and accept ridicule in order to defend some other group of people? Who will travel to Selma, who will fight in Spain, who will march on Washington, who will maintain the moral compass and make sure that it hasn't been tampered with? We will always have tyrants and demagogs. The question is whether we will find the wisdom to understand that any injustice inflicted on the other group can also be inflicted on us. Will we have the courage to stand up and say no? What sacrifice are we willing to make to ensure that a Holocaust can never happen again.

If we ever stop thinking about the Holocaust, it can happen again and eventually, it will.

      - Mark

Baruch hashem.

As for you, Tedham, I'm sorry you also feel the need to attack me. I hope it helps the ol' wanger.

Alex

Amen.

if the Holocaust can happen in Germany, it can happen in the U.S. or Canada or Australia or Africa or anywhere at all

Too true. Let us never forget, and be constantly vigilant.

To respond to Yom Ha'Shoah with, "What about the others?" is a testimony to the good it does. It's a valid question which should be asked and acted upon.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Perhaps I'm not such an evil man after all!

you show incredible ignorance about the Holocaust and about the Jewish people

What exactly did I say that shows ignorance about the Holocaust? I want exact words of what I said that displays my ignorance of the Holocaust, or a retraction of this outrageous and unfounded claim.

Alex

I was incorrect to suggest that you were ignorant of the Holocaust. For that, I most certainly do appologize.

However, you were the person who said, "The only problem I have with Holocaust Remembrance is that it tends to bifurcate the holocaust and only look at the death of Jews. 5 million non-Jews died in the gas chambers also. Who remembers them?"

The direct implication in your statement being that Jews who remember the Holocaust do not care about non-Jews murdered by the Nazis.

The fact of the matter is, as many people here have stated, all of us who remember the Holocaust, including the major Jewish organizations, remember them.

You went on to infer that Holocaust teaching in the United States education education system ignores the non-Jews murdered by the Nazi regime. I am a product of the New York school system and I was taught that there were millions of non-Jewish victims.

You said, "Ah but who writes the curriculum? Surely the ADL has some say? I find it nearly impossible to believe that no Jewish agency whatever has any oversight or provides no input concerning the content of the Holocaust units the schools teach."

Your intended implication is that there is some kind of Jewish control of Holocaust teaching in the U.S. While offering no proof of that, you particularly slur the ADL. However, a visit to the ADL website reveals that they teach that millions of non-Jews were persecuted and murdered by the Nazis.

The truth, had you taken the moment it took me to do a Google search for the ADL website, is exactly the opposite of your innuendo.

In another thread that Irwin pointed me to, I saw a message from you equating Jews, as an ethnic group, "brutal opressors" because of actions of the Israeli government in regard to the Palestinians. Actions, by the way that many Jewish people and many Israelis, also object to.

You also made a point of stating in that thread that you had no Jewish friends. That, in fact, the only Jew you even know was "one of the kids my teenage boy hangs with."

You say that you are widely read on the Holocaust, on anti-Semitism, etc. I would have thought that someone with such deep interest would have known some Jews in his lifetime.

Speaking as a child of Holocaust survivors and grandson of Holocaust victims, who were murdered only because they were Jewish, I find your attitudes very hard to take.

You know Alex, if you had said something like, "let us also remember all of the victims," I would have been the very first to agree with you. But, that's not the way you put it.

To all others reading this discussion: I certainly did not introduce this thread to spark any kind of debate with Alex. The Holocaust, and our reasons to never forget it, should never be a matter of debate.

With that, I will sadly withdraw from this discussion.

I have answered this. Did you read my answer? Why challenge people if you are not going to read what they say in response to your challenge?

In another thread that Irwin pointed me to, I saw a message from you equating Jews, as an ethnic group, "brutal opressors" because of actions of the Israeli government in regard to the Palestinians. Actions, by the way that many Jewish people and many Israelis, also object to.

I did no such thing. Irwin misread me as saying that. I thought I had cleared that up with him. He definitely pointed out that many Jewish people and many Israelis object to the state of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, and I acknowledged this fact.

You also made a point of stating in that thread that you had no Jewish friends. That, in fact, the only Jew you even know was "one of the kids my teenage boy hangs with."

You say that you are widely read on the Holocaust, on anti-Semitism, etc. I would have thought that someone with such deep interest would have known some Jews in his lifetime.

Do you realize there is a difference between my current circle of friends and the people I've known in my lifetime? Apples and oranges, my friend. I can't even see why you bring this up, except to slam me.

Speaking as a child of Holocaust survivors and grandson of Holocaust victims, who were murdered only because they were Jewish, I find your attitudes very hard to take.

Which ones? You haven't correctly identified any of my attitudes yet. You are only seeing what you THINK is there, not what is really there.

Also you don't seem to be able to read it when someone changes their opinions, or retracts overstatements. I tend to lead with my strongest feelings, and then accept correction and rethink my opinions and feelings. This is the way I operate, whether I'm talking about folk music or history or ragout recipes. If you are the sort who tends to take someone's first statements as set in stone, and can't assimilate any changes from what is first said, then we probably shouldn't discuss anything, because you'll miss what I'm all about.

I realize that any strong feelings I have that have any content relating to Israel, the Holocaust, Jews, etc. are likely to get me branded an anti-semite. I get tired of it, but I'm kind of used to it by now. For the most part I am able to talk these things through with people until we both understand each other. Apparently this won't be possible with you. I'm sorry about that, but I can't change you or your way of dealing with people.

It's unfortunate that you and I can't come to some sort of understanding on this. But I don't intend to lose any sleep over it, nor do i think this proves me to be anti-semitic.

Alex

I could have just stewed in my ignorance and gone away with a bad feeling in my mouth.

Which apparently you think would have been the better course of action. I disagree.

Alex

Yes, let's all just do web searches -- no need to have a Mudcat Forum at all.

Alex

This year's observance of Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day) begins this evening (Wednesday May 18) at sundown and continues until sundown on Thursday.

This day that honors the memory of the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust.

The day also pays tribute to the Partisans who resisted the Nazis.

Thank you Tedham for the reminder.

You were the one who introduced controversy into this thread with your suggestion that Jews do not remember other victims of the Holocaust.

You were one who said that Holocaust education in the United States ignored other victims.

aI went to public school in Massachusetts and was certainly not taught that it was only Jews who were murdered by the Nazis.

You were the one who suggested that the Holocaust teaching you described was imposed by Jewish organizations. You suggested the ADL.

Tedham went to the ADL website and found their teachings were otherwise.

Today, I've spent time on the websites of Yad Vashem, the Holocaust museum in Jerusalem, and of the United States Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. Both of them discuss at great length the other victims of the Holocaust.

There is something very wrong that a discussion of the Holocaust has become a discussion about you. I have exchanged e-mail with Tedham and he has been sickened by this. He has told me that he will not come back to this thread. Nor will I.

I ASK YOU: What did the original post say?

I will quote it verbatim, via the magic of cut and paste:

This day that honors the memory of the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis during the Holocaust

I was just believing what I was told, Irwin. Sue me.

Alex

A great way to increase understanding and sympathy between peoples.

Alex

It can be said that the Jews who were exterminated get more press, at least in the U.S. (at least that is what I've seen). It wasn't until I recently did some research on genocide that I learned the totals of other individuals who were killed.

I don't believe that this is a bias towards Jews - I just think that the Jewish Community in the U.S. is more organized and better able to tell of the Holocaust. Certainly I am not aware of any major efforts by gay, handicapped or Roma(Gypsy) communities or organizations to focus public attention on their Holocaust stories.

And truth be told, few in this country are aware that some estimates list the death toll of Slavs to be even higher than those of Jews. (And those estimates do not include all the Slavs killed in battle).

This is just a quick quiz, but how many of us know the estimates of total numbers put to death of all the various communities during the Holocaust? Until I did the research I only knew that about 6 million Jews died.

How about:
Slavs (Poles, Russians, etc.)?
Roma (Gypsies)?
gays?
handicapped?

pax yall

Actually the only other number I know is 5 million.

Also the Jehovah's Witnesses, although in small numbers in Europe at that time, got a special page in the Nazi's book, for their views on patrotism vis-a-vis religion (I'm simplifying here). They had their own arm-patch symbol, although I forget now what it was.

I'm sickened that I can't express my feelings here and have them taken seriously and not be attacked or dismissed out-of-hand. I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, and have. Yet I am unspeakably evil, apparently. Just sickening.

Alex

Slavs (Poles, Russians, etc.) - anywhere between 5 million and 16 million - It is difficult for the West to know, because the Soviets took control of those areas and held on the the statistics. It is estimated that as many as 4 million Soviet prisoners of war died in captivity (the number of Western P.O.W.s is under 3,000)

Roma (Gypsies) - Between 100,000 and 500,000 - But Romania under the control of Germany reportedly exterminated another 200,000. This number is difficult, because pre-war European nations universally undercounted the population of Roma in their midst.

gays - anywhere between 50,000 and 200,000 - this is a rough estimate because gays were often not listed as being gay in the official Nazi paperwork, but there are estimates that over 60% of German gays were killed

handicapped - the most common figure I have seen is 275,000.

While the Nazis kept good records of the individuals who were sent to concentration camps, at least 30% of the victims of the Holocaust were killed in their homes and on the streets and were rarely tallied.

Pax yall

I believe that the estimates I have seen is that around 10,000 of them died. Many more escaped because of their organization and their ties to J.W. communities in England , Canada and the U.S. Many who were killed chose to stay in Germany to help others escape in the hopes that they would be a bit safer.

Alex (and all), I'd rather not comment on the above discussion. This is not an easy subject to discuss - especially if there is a criticism to be voiced. People take the subject seriously and the idiots who try to deny the gravity of the Holocaust (I'm talking about those who try to deny that it occured or who are racist and think that the Nazis were ok) understandibly make us all sick to our stomachs.

The best thing about a discussion like this is the opportunity it afford us all to learn. Please, everyone - learn and never forget - never forget the Jews and never for get everyone who died in some sort of massacre.

Like the estimated 400 million Africans who died due to the slave trade (1500-1880)

Like the estimated 250 million American Indians who died due to European encroachment (1492-1910)

Like the estimated 9 million Pagans (and those just accused of Paganism) who died due to the Inqusition and other Christian agression (1400s-1700s)

and on and on

Ironically, the only thing that humans seem to be better at than killing other humans is giving birth to other humans.

pax yall

troll

mg

"In fairness to Irwin, he did not say what you quoted him as saying. He was himself quoting someone else and responding."

You were absolutely right. My apologies, and thanks for pointing that out.

Rick

I watched "Schindler's List" for the first time this week (had avoided it before because I just did not think I could handle it). I was very very moved. It brough tme back to the day in 7 th grade when our English teacher (Mrs. Keyser) showed us "Night and Fog." I found it hard to believe it was real then. I still do.

Alex

Rather famous, suprised you haven't heard of it.

One of the most memorable of those was a visit by Sugihara's son, who spoke to us of his father and his life. It was an honour to learn of his efforts.

While I hold a good deal of respect for everyone who has posted on this thread, it sickens me to see such bickering; it seems to have become the norm for the Mudcat. Millions were murdered, many still are being murdered. Enough said, remember them and work for Peace.

katsaddened

I thought the subject of this thread was too important to ignore and too close to us all to be a source of more fighting. Wrong again.

      - Mark

kat

Night and Fog (Nacht und Fug) is not only a documentary film, it is also a euphemism for the "late at night in the fog" Disappearances of Jews and others prior to the actual Holocaust..........many thousands disappeared before documentation began.......and I will say it again....IT WAS NOT ONLY JEWS THAT DISAPPEARED!!!

I can only wonder, where have some people been?

Sorcha, who finally had the courage to watch Schindler's List........and was surprised.