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Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl

DigiTrad:
FREEBORN MAN
FREEBORN MAN OF THE TRAVELING PEOPLE


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Freeborn Man (Ewan MacColl) (15)
Tune Req: Freeborn Man of the Travelling People (8)
Lyr Req: Freeborn Man (Jon Mark) (5)
Help: Celtic Clan/Freeborn Man (6)
Lyr/Chords Req: Travelling People (Ewan MacColl) (9)
Lyr Req: Free born man of travelling people (9)
Lyr Req: Freeborn Man (bluegrass, from J Martin) (4)


21 Nov 98 - 12:16 PM
Susan of DT 21 Nov 98 - 01:41 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Nov 98 - 08:03 PM
Philippa 22 Nov 98 - 06:09 AM
Eric Lackford 24 Nov 98 - 05:48 PM
Pete M 24 Nov 98 - 06:41 PM
Steve Parkes 25 Nov 98 - 07:45 AM
Wally Macnow 25 Nov 98 - 10:02 AM
Paula Chavez 25 Nov 98 - 12:12 PM
Barry Finn 25 Nov 98 - 06:00 PM
Barbara 25 Nov 98 - 08:25 PM
Richard McD. Bridge 26 Nov 98 - 05:23 PM
Philippa 26 Nov 98 - 05:41 PM
Steve Parkes 27 Nov 98 - 03:58 AM
Pete M 29 Nov 98 - 05:16 PM
Steve Parkes 04 Dec 98 - 08:40 AM
Animaterra 04 Dec 98 - 12:55 PM
Jerry Friedman 05 Dec 98 - 06:42 PM
Steve Parkes 07 Dec 98 - 03:56 AM
Sandy 07 Dec 98 - 11:15 PM
skw@ 15 Dec 98 - 03:27 AM
GUEST,Kaye Robertson Haughee 31 Oct 02 - 09:10 PM
Gurney 01 Nov 02 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,Santa 01 Nov 02 - 05:24 AM
GUEST,ivor biggin 01 Nov 02 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,peggy seeger fan 01 Nov 02 - 12:29 PM
Gurney 02 Nov 02 - 05:05 AM
InOBU 02 Nov 02 - 05:37 AM
GUEST,peggy seeger fan 05 Nov 02 - 01:33 AM
Gurney 05 Nov 02 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,ivor biggin 06 Nov 02 - 01:33 AM
GUEST,peggy seeger fan 06 Nov 02 - 01:35 AM
mmb 07 Nov 02 - 01:00 AM
GUEST,ivor biggin 07 Nov 02 - 01:43 AM
Gurney 09 Nov 02 - 02:44 AM
GUEST,ivor biggin 11 Nov 02 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,peggy seeger fan 12 Nov 02 - 02:17 PM
bazza 12 Nov 02 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,peggy seeger fan 13 Nov 02 - 12:48 PM
GUEST 13 Nov 02 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,ivor biggin 25 Nov 02 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Pharon 26 Dec 02 - 09:49 PM
Coyote Breath 27 Dec 02 - 04:23 PM
Gurney 28 Dec 02 - 05:32 AM
Gurney 29 Dec 02 - 02:36 AM
GUEST 29 Nov 04 - 01:34 PM
akenaton 29 Nov 04 - 05:27 PM
akenaton 29 Nov 04 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,bari gadgie 29 Nov 04 - 05:55 PM
akenaton 29 Nov 04 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,bari gadgie 29 Nov 04 - 06:38 PM
akenaton 29 Nov 04 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,bari gadgie 29 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM
akenaton 29 Nov 04 - 07:29 PM
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Subject: the travelling people bij McColl
From:
Date: 21 Nov 98 - 12:16 PM

I cannot find the text of the song The Travelling People, immortelized bij Luke Kelly and written bij McColl, anywhere, please help


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Susan of DT
Date: 21 Nov 98 - 01:41 PM

Put "freeborn" or "[freeborn man]" in the blue search box to see that song and others on an album of that title


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Nov 98 - 08:03 PM

Please recognize that we have contributors who speak English and others that speak American; spelling corresponds. If you can't find it under "travelling" (English), try it under "traveling" (Yank). Or, just do a search for travel* people.


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Philippa
Date: 22 Nov 98 - 06:09 AM

Spelling's not the problem: You will get the song if you look up Freeborn Man in the DT in the manner suggested by Susan above


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Eric Lackford
Date: 24 Nov 98 - 05:48 PM

Lyrics can be obtained from; http://ameba.lpt.fi/~zaphod/search/lyrics/freeborn_man_of_the_traveling_people (This is what is written at the bottom of my down loaded page-so it must be right. I downloaded them on 28.06.98. recordings exist by Ewan and others. It was also released by a group called "the southern folk four" a band from Carrick on Suir Co Tipperary in 1965 on PYE-NEP 24226 (45rpm)Glad to help.


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Pete M
Date: 24 Nov 98 - 06:41 PM

I think you're a wee bit off course with the idea that spelling is not a problem in a full text retrieval system Philippa. Not only spelling (regional and (in)accurate), but inserted but unprintable ascii characters, and as you demonstrate, multiple synonyms for a song/tune are all major headaches when searching a database like the DT. The use of wild card and phonetic searching algorithms can alleviate the problem but only at the expense of highly unspecific results. Even the use of key words is fraught with problems in the same way eg WW1 is not the same as WWI, politics is not the same as political etc. added to which the attribuion of a keyword is a value judgement not a definitive. So lets not minimise the problems but thank Dick/Susan/Max for the excellent facilites they have provided.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Nov 98 - 07:45 AM

I'm curious. Are there travel(l)ing people in the States like the ones over her in the UK - living in trailers & moving around in small groups, often the same family?

If there are, do they face the same trouble with settled people? What do they do for a living?

Pubs in Milton Keynes have put up signs saying "no travellers" and the council have told them they're breaking the race relations laws, but given that most travellers here are English Irish or Scottish I don't think that would stand up. George Borrow, the English writer and general smart-arse know-all said in the 19th century that the only difference he could find between travellers who called themelves Romaniy and those who didn't was that the Rom's eat hedgehogs and the others don't! And of course the "gypsy" caravan was invented in the last century by a man who lived in a house but wanted to save money on his holidays.

Steve


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 25 Nov 98 - 10:02 AM

If you're looking for a recording, it's on a cassette called "Freeborn Man" by Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger. We carry it at Camsco Music.

Wally Macnow www.camsco.com


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Paula Chavez
Date: 25 Nov 98 - 12:12 PM

Steve,

I don't believe there is a direct parallel here in the States.

There are people who purchase campers and recreational vehicles (R.V.'s) and then travel around the country (lots of them tend to be older folks, retirees), but generally speaking they travel alone, not in groups. There are even towns which deliberately cater to this clientele. For example, the climate in Yuma, Arizona remains quite mild all year so lots of older folks ("Snowbirds," as the jargon goes) in R.V.'s stay there every winter, then move on when spring arrives. Kind of like an annual migration. These are not destitute people, mind you. They spend their dollars.

Although it may happen in isolated instances or under unusual circumstances (i.e., natural disasters such as hurricanes), banding together in groups and pooling resources is not an idea which occurs naturally to the American mind, at any economic level.

-Paula


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Nov 98 - 06:00 PM

Hi Steve, There are traveling peoples here in the US, not very well known or liked, usually refered to as "gypsy". When I was a teen I used to chum around with those belonging to the Bimbo Clan or family they also were Romaniy Gypsys. Formal schooling was something they didn't follow, I guess now I'd have to say they were all home schooled, don't know how they got around the laws of those days. I remember the King of the Gypsys being at the Peter Bent Brigham Hospital, they amassed themselves there in camp style, tents & all in the middle of the inner city, on the front lawn of the Hospital & didn't move until their head of state was discharged. They lived as transits, not in wagons, buggies & carts, but they'd stay grouped together in rented dwellings & then move on to a different part of the city then to a near by city eventually I lost track of them. Barry


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Subject: Lyr Add: GERITOL GYPSY (Peter Krug)^^
From: Barbara
Date: 25 Nov 98 - 08:25 PM

Hope to answer Steve's question with a song by Peter Krug, called Geritol Gypsy. Faith Petric has recorded this and changed the gender.
n.b. Geritol is a popular senior citizen tonic, supposed to help with 'iron poor blood' and give more energy.

Geritol Gypsy
(Peter Krug)

When I get old and my head turns grey
I know for sure I don't want to stay
At Old Folks Hoax or Leisureville or a condo by the sea
When my work is done and my kids are grown
And my time at last is all my own,
I know just the life I want to lead

Chorus:
I want to be a Geritol Gypsy, drive an RV ten yards long
And roll on down the Interstate, just singing a highway song
I want to be a Geritol Gypsy underneath the open skies
I want to be a Geritol Gypsy till I die.

I want to ramble round from town to town
You never know where I might be found
At a KOA or a roadside rest from Maine to Mexico
So pump me forty gallons, bub,
I want to roll with the Good Sam Club,
Wherever the highway takes me, I want to go!

Chorus

Oh, you won't find me in a rocking chair
On the old park bench, I won't be there
No, I'll be sitting in the pilot house of a tin chateau on wheels
In the mountain morning, in the desert night
A ramblin' Grandad, doin' all right,
Yes, I want to know just how the wild goose feels

Chorus

For so many years I've been so bored
But soon I'll reach my just reward
From the pension plan and the IRA and the Social Security
But the long hard pull at last is done
And, dammit, I'm gonna have some fun
A ramblin' renegade grandpa, that'd be me.

Chorus ^^


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Richard McD. Bridge
Date: 26 Nov 98 - 05:23 PM

1. There may be a need evidenced to know a bit more about both Romany and travelling or tinker cultures to minimise the risk of being offensive.

2. Why "who speak English" but "that speak American". I tend to use "that" as synonymous with "which" but I notice the micorsoft grammaar checker seems to disagree. Is this another manifestation of the difference between the two languages?

3. The science of information retrieval has taken a beating since computing power has grown so much but for an understanding of the fundamentals of irrelevancy and "false drops" it may still be worthwhile to start reading with "Information retrieval theory" by Kent, although it is almost 30 years old, if you can still find a copy


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Philippa
Date: 26 Nov 98 - 05:41 PM

re Pete's message, all I meantwas that now that we have the title Freeborn Man and it's on the DT under that name, there's no need to look up 'travelling' or 'traveling' (but it there were, how about just searching 'travel'?)


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 27 Nov 98 - 03:58 AM

Richard, I'll try and get back on your first point.

On your second, remember that the English spoken in America was the English they used to speak in 16th century West Country England (they still do speak like that in parts, I'm told). If you come to the Midlands - south Staffordshire and Warwickshire, anyway - they still sound like they did in Shakespeare's time, apart from vocabulary , and in the Black Country - Dudley, Walsall and so on, they still speak like they did in Chaucer's time. If yo cor mek out what we'm sayin, think how bad things would be today if the Pilgrim Fathers had come from Wednesbury (that's where Wyatt Earp's father came from!).

That's enough lecture! Steve


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Pete M
Date: 29 Nov 98 - 05:16 PM

Richard,

I'm not sure of the point of your first comment, could you clarify?

Quite apart from Steve's comments above, Fowler has a lengthy treatment of the uses and abuses of "that" and "which".

Thanks for the tip about Kent, I'll try and find a copy, it's certainly an area which is poorly understood both by database designers and users, compounded by completely different expectations and constraints within each group.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 08:40 AM

Coming back to Richard's post on 26-Nov-98:

"There may be a need evidenced to know a bit more about both Romany and travelling or tinker cultures to minimise the risk of being offensive" was what you said, Richard. In the mid-70's in Walsall (England) there was an outfit called the Travellers' School. It was set up as a charitable organisation to teach the three Rs to kids of travelling people. I wasn't directly involved with it, but I used to know some of the people who worked with it. We're talking pre New Age here, by the way.

I met quite a few travellers, and they were mostly Irish - that's simply because I met Irish travellers; there are lots of people from Britain on the road as well. Now, I come from a working class background (somehow I've got more middle class over the years - sorry!), and I can't say that the people I met were any different from anyone else, apart from their lifestyle. They were people, just the same - and as diferent - as other people, but who couldn't stand being tied down to living in a house in one place: a lot had tried settling down, and had to go back on the road. The mistrust between travelling and settled people seems to stem more from reputation than experience - if you think someone is dishonest, you don't give him the chance to prove it; but neither do you give him the opprtunity to prove otherwise. When settled people do meet travellers, they are usually pleasantly surprised. Don't think I'm wearing my rose-tinted specs here, I'm not saying they're better but different, and I don't condone wrong-doing by anyone.

It's usual for travellers to be moved on by the police when they settle for a few days; they get moved to the next force's patch, where they get moved on again. There was a law passed here in the 70's to force local authorities to provide hard standing and water and toilets for travellers. It provoked a very nasty nimby reaction everywhere, and actually made it easier in law to move people on when the sites filled up. There was an eviction in a town called Brownhills that a bunch of us went to - some families were being moved off some derelict land owned by a local factory. The owners sent in a team of volunteers from their workers, with an excavator to tow out the caravans. We Saturday on the towbars or inside the'vans (it's illegal here to tow a 'van with people inside) and some stood in front of the digger. We had a local lawyer, Ivan Geffen, to see everything was legal on our side. In the end the eviction was called off. I was a little astonished to find that many of the workers (nearly all family men) get talking to the travellers and to to us, and said they hadn't realised there would be children involved. Seeing the travellers as people struggling to maintain their families instead of people out to rip off the locals changed their attitude.

It's interesting to me that travelling people don't have leaders, instead they have strong family loyalties. Leaders are 'made' at times of crisis, and then go back to being what themselves when the trouble's over. One such was Johnny Connors, who was involved in the Brownhills eviction. He is (? I don't know if he's still alive) a talented singer and writer in the traditional style, and the story is told in his song 'the battle of Brownhills'. I don't know the words, and I've no idea who might, but if you do …

McColl's song comes from his 1960's 'radio ballad' on the travelling people. It used to be available on vinyl, but I don't know if it still is - if you can't find it you can always try pestering the BBC! Here's an opportunity for someone to start a new thread - in fact I'll do it myself.

Steve


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Animaterra
Date: 04 Dec 98 - 12:55 PM

Not many of us state-side were aware of the difference between Traveling People and gypsies. I was in a performance in the Boston area a few years ago that focused on the travelers- before that I had never heard of them. I learned then that some of the traveling people claim to be descended from those displaces by the Scottish clearances, others say they are descended from Irish or Scottish lords or lairds displaced by the English even further back in time. I don't think there are any in the US; tho there certainly are gypsies, as Barry has said. A family spent a winter in a town where I taught in Massachusetts some years ago.


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 05 Dec 98 - 06:42 PM

Steve, the closest people in the U.S. to your "travelers" might be migrant farm workers, who aren't all from Mexico and other foreign countries (especially in the eastern U.S.). I don't know how many have fixed addresses part of the year.

There used to be socially recognized classes of peddlers, tramps, hoboes, etc., but I think very few people do anything like that now.

Richard, if I've got this right, American copyeditors often follow a suggestion that Fowler made on "that" and "which" (that is, they don't allow "a suggestion which Fowler made"). However, most Americans don't make this distinction, as standard British usage doesn't. "That" is commonly used for human beings here. I didn't even notice that Dick had used "who" in one clause and "that" in the next.

I take it a British caravan is an American trailer/mobile home/camper/RV? (Not that those are exactly the same thing.)


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 07 Dec 98 - 03:56 AM

Two out of three, Jerry! Travellers tend to say 'trailer', but us house-dwellers are in the habit of saying 'caravan' - a mobile home that has to be towed. The wooden horse-drawn 'gypsy' caravan was actually invented by a guy in a house who wanted a bit more spontaneity or something in his vacations.

Steve


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Sandy
Date: 07 Dec 98 - 11:15 PM

Hello: Some good books about the Scottish Travelers: Betsy Whyte's "Yellow on the Broom," Timothy Neat's "Summer Walkers," and James Porter and Herschel Gower's "Jeannie Robertson." Jeannie was one of the world's great ballad singers and Rounder now has a CD of her singing in its series of Lomax-recorded material. Check it out! There will also be several of her songs (no duplicates) on our upcoming Folk-Legacy CD of traditional ballads and songs. We collected from her in 1958, staying with her for a week. Absolutely changed our lives! We will also include a fine version of "Lang A-Growin'" sung for us by her daughter, Lizzie Higgins, who was also a fine singer. Those were the days, my friends. I miss 'em.


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: skw@
Date: 15 Dec 98 - 03:27 AM

Betsy Whyte wrote a second part of her autobiography, 'Red Rowans and Wild Honey'. Also, Adam McNaughtan was inspired by her books to write 'The Yellow on the Broom', which is a grand song to sing along with. It's in the DT. The tune is given as 'The Female Drummer' as sung by Harry Cox - if that's any help to anyone.

The town mentioned is Brechin.
Blair is Blairgowrie, where the travellers met up for the fruit-picking season
Susanne


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: GUEST,Kaye Robertson Haughee
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 09:10 PM


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: Gurney
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 05:02 AM

Another bit of unasked-for, semi-informed information....I heard that the Gypsies originally came from the west Pakistan/Afganistan area. The difference between them and the Travellers in England is racial.
I've been inside the caravans/trailers of both a couple of times, and they were immaculate and full of glass and china treasures. The old system used to be that gypsies were seasonal farm labour mostly, travellers were dealers in scrap, both dealt in horses. As in all life, a few spoiled it for everyone, and rubbish left behind where they'd stopped made them often unwelcome.


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Subject: RE: the travelling people bij McColl
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 05:24 AM

"Gypsies" is a distortion of "Egyptians", the medieval English idea of where they came from. Given that the wonderful bowl seen as representing Celtic (don't start!) Le Tene culture is now recognised as having images of the Indian god Ganesh, perhaps they've been around longer than most think!

They are known as Tsiganes (various spellings) in Europe.   In Eastern Europe, as the Rom, they are being persecuted since the fall of Communism and it's egalitarian approach.

The annual horse fair at Appleby in Cumbria still attracts travellers from around the country.

The McColl Radio Ballad is currently available on CD, and it goes to show that times haven't changed all that much.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,ivor biggin
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 12:18 PM

Christ on a bike!!!!!!!!!

I dont believe you people( especially you boring colonials)all she asked for was the lyrics (thats words) to a song.

What does she get? boring thesis upon boring thesis on the whys werefores and why nots of the itinerant scrap metal dealers and dodgy tarmac drive layers.
yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,peggy seeger fan
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 12:29 PM

good one ivor,

any one who actually met Ewan (i've got a big ego )Mcall ,would tell you that he was pretty boring as well.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 05:05 AM

These posts do tend to take a life of their own, don't they.
However, no one ever stood behind me and twisted my arm to make me read them, I do it out of interest in the subject. If it moves some to blasphemy or proof-reading error, well, it takes all sorts to make a world. Have a nice day. Or any sort of day you want.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 05:37 AM

I suppose though, on our recent post about anti Traveller bias in the states, the anti Traveller bias is pretty clear in some of the posts on this thread, eh? Cheers, Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,peggy seeger fan
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 01:33 AM

No blasphemy in speaking the truth, or in your cosy little life do you not like being faced with reallity?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 04:47 AM

Blasphemy is not speaking the truth, it is 'Taking the name of the lord thy God in vain.' There are nine more rules if you want them. Some are pretty good ones, like 'Thou shalt not kill'
I thought about explaining that I'm NOT of a religeous bent, but, hey, if you want to count me in their number, well, OK.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,ivor biggin
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:33 AM

o lordy and pass the hankies,
the last refuge of a scoundrel,we've caught religion now have we?

T'will fit in well with the boooooooooooring priggishness


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,peggy seeger fan
Date: 06 Nov 02 - 01:35 AM

wow, biggin that's a good 'un!!!!!! true though


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: mmb
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 01:00 AM

I was just telling co-workers today how much I enjoy the grammatical explanations and - sometimes disputations - that arise on Mudcat. We are certainly a large and diverse group, and it appears that there should be plenty of room here for all of us. As one person wrote a while back, those who don't appreciate these "tangents" are only a mouse-click away from escape.
    Those of us in the States may recall that it was only a few months ago that a young mother was caught on videotape shaking and striking her four-year-old in a store parking lot. In a press conference following her arraignment, she identified herself as a member of The Travellers, which led to a spate of network stories about the ethnic subculture composed of several branches, some of which are quite large and unsavory. They are described as moving about the country during our good-weather months, and then returning to enclaves of very closed-community, middle-class "neighborhoods" in milder climates during winter.
    Here in the South, one group preys upoon the elderly whose homes may be in need of repair. The husband of the woman in the child-abuse story had previous arrests (I don't remember whether there were convictions) for home-repair fraud.
    Another subgroup that got extensive coverage promotes precocious sexuality and marriage of their very young daughters to middle-aged men in the group.
    These groups are certainly not to be confused with retirees who spend much of their time "on the road," or migrant workers whose low pay and often miserable living conditions keep produce prices in check for a society that pays little or no attention to their situation.
    Talk about Thread Creep!!!   But not much. I had very mixed feelings after that young woman brought so much negative attention to a culture that is largely unknown, certainly not well-understood, and often romanticized. It will be some time before I can listen to Free-Born Man of the Travelling People again without mixed feelings.   M.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,ivor biggin
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 01:43 AM

The penny has dropped!!!!!!!!!!!! well done mmb!!!!!!!!!!!! at last we have found one colonial with a tither of sense,and not taken in with the sentimental end of Mcall's ramblings.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: Gurney
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 02:44 AM

Dear Ivor and PSFan, sorry to be so late replying to your flames, I can't get the computer every day.

Religion.
The last refuge of a scoundrel is patriotism, not religion. If you are quoting, that is. Wrong again.

Colonials.
Only people living in the great Rift valley aren't colonials. Is that where you're from? I'm English, living in NZ. Lots of 'catters are Poms. Can't you tell by the spelling? Perhaps not.

MacColl.
Not sure how to spell his name, but I'm sure it isn't McCall, as you've spelled it twice. Wrong again.
You may be right about his ego, I never heard or met him, but his contribution to our genre is enormous. Peggy Seegar liked him.

Boring.
In the eyes of the beholder, so is boorishness.

Membership.
If you join the 'Cat, you can flame me privately. Or is it less fun that way?

Over to you.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,ivor biggin
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 03:15 PM

so you spotted the deliberate mistakes Eh? well done.

Couple a things to consider though while you are getting all judgemental and uppity.

1.You mention that I spelt his name wrong, but you arent sure how you spell it? whaaaaaaaaat!!!!!! Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!come On!!!!

2.You never met him or heard him but you have formed a very definate opinion about his contribution to the genre,I may be a little confused here,but how in the name of the great delapidated jesus do you do that????????? and peggy seeger,what about her?is that someone else you dont know, but know all about,how do you know if she liked him, was you not at the foot of the bed when he penned the "first time ever I saw your face" or one of his other owld come all ye's

It aint so long ago that peggy seeger was being intervewd by the BBC about her life with the great egoist and said that she was never mentioned once in his tome of a autobiography. I think that has got a lot to say about some one.

3.New Zealnd Eh? never been ,never wanted to,been all over the world though working me way,using a bit of native wit and cunning and trying hard not to rip anyone off. Funnily enough spent a lot of time with some travellers on the west coast of Ireland no romance there. Got some good ausie mates though. The ausies reckon you lot are a bit boring,what do you reckon?

Oh, sorry about spelling mistakes,I am only an uneducated pom don't you know, but I would rather be boorish than booring.

To conclude, I dont believe in joining anything that would have me as a member,Groucho marx I think, But i am sure you will point it out to me if i am wrong.

yeh, and you are right about one thing, this is a lot of fun!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,peggy seeger fan
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 02:17 PM

well said biggin!!!

All for a little bit of criisism,but to complain about the odd spelling mistake is a little bit trite.He wants to have a look at some of them "punch the horse" threads to seem some real howlers

Also when some one is protesting about having a down on some one I dont they should use derogatory words like "POM".Bit of double values there,though i believe now the australians are actualy fessing up to there ancestory,it is now very with it to have a convict as a relation.Not to sure about the New Zealanders though.

I also think some one is missing the point here and it aint me or you!!!!!   

Come on you lot out there!!!! there is bad and good in every one,just need to find it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: bazza
Date: 12 Nov 02 - 02:44 PM

I live on a Mobile home site in Surrey ,Stock broker belt trailer trash,I have a romany friend on the site who can speak some of the Romany language,he said he can understand some of the Pakistani and indian language so I would think thats the area they come from.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,peggy seeger fan
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 12:48 PM

Thats one opinion and you are entitled to hold it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 02 - 02:37 PM

A little bit patronising there,PSF


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,ivor biggin
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 02:01 PM

Found your computor or tongue yet,gurney.

Can't wait for your reply. as you said,over to you.


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Subject: steve Parke fellow traveller
From: GUEST,Pharon
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 09:49 PM

Well to tell ya the truth. The travellers living in the states are you could say like the ones in the UK. Some move around in trailers doing work for the country folk. Their usually family groups with tight family ties. As u have read above you can see that yes we do face persacution from the settled people.
I've herd of the pubs in Uk putting up sign rejecting travellers. In the states must people dont know your a traveller unless you tell them or your go around ripping people off. But when you do good, honest work and live by the book life is good and you can go on being a traveller. Because Ill tell you all I could be thy neighbor.

I suggest all travellers come to the states I dont need to tell you were youll be able to find us but follow the sun.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 04:23 PM

Sometimes these posts remind me of those incredibly convoluted and interwoven Victorian tales where in uncanny fashion, everything is somehow connected and one event triggers another or is triggered by something earlier and then the rolling on and on of the story line seems to represent this endless flow of arcane interconnectivity, perhaps a model of life itself, perhaps just an example of the sort of minutae stricken thought processes common to people with entirely too much time on their hands. "It was the best of times ......"

I love it!!!

CB


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:32 AM

Dear Ivor Biggin, sorry about the delay. Computer trouble, plus the Mudcat seems often to be down, possibly due to time differences, on the occasions I try. My difficulty with spelling McColl? Is it MacColl. I couldn't be bothered to look it up.

How do I know he wrote a lot of good songs? I've sung some of them, including "The first time ever" that you mentioned. I've also heard his recordings, including the Radio Ballads, and I've heard a lot of other singers sing his stuff. Sorry if I confused you, I meant I'd never heard him LIVE or seen an interview. How do I know Peggy liked him? Just basing my opinion on the words of "The first time ever' and their long association. A couple of replies to you friend (girl friend?) PSF. I don't consider 'Pom' a derogatory term, and I am one. Not a very PC one, though. I do agree with PSF about the Punch the Horse posts, but I can't really understand them, anyway. Also, if an Aussie has a criminal among their ancestors, it is very likely to be an ENGLISH criminal. Happy New Year to you both.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 02:36 AM

Dear Ivor, I've been worried sick all night that my last post wasn't acerbic enough for you, so I thought I'd sprinkle a little vinegar on your chips. Travelling the world living on your wits, eh. Must have been a hungry time. There are terms here for people who do that. Bludger. Absconder. Con-man. Overstayer. Thief. Hairdresser. Musician. I'm sure that you are the last one.

The term 'deliberate mistake' is an oxymoron. Like 'Microsoft Works.'

I don't think you are an uneducated Pom. I think you are a poor proofreader, with an erratic "shift" key. I do take your point about preferring to be thought boorish rather than boring(note spelling.)

Referring to the family argument between Aussies(note spelling) and Kiwis. A past Prime Minister of NZ, when chided about Kiwi immigration into Oz, remarked that "It would raise the IQ of BOTH countries."

I'll let you have the last word, I won't reply, but I promise to read it. Happy New Year to you and yours, and all our readers. Chris.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 01:34 PM

Steve,
I may have an angle on the Johnny Connors song if you are still searching? At least, I know a man who knows himself ... kind regards, Turtle Bunbury


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:27 PM

Guest Ivor....It is possible to be boorish AND boring and you seem to have achieved both quite nicely.

I for one do remember the Scottish travellers.
They were just disappearing when I was a boy .
They had no transport but travelled on foot, wore common highland dress,plaid shawls soft highland bonnets, plaid trousers....never kilts.
they lived in "bow tents" which they made up nightly from hazel branches covered by light tarpulen or rushes.
They sold craft items or leather and tin goods out of a large wicker creel basket.
Gaelic was spoken among themselves, although we house dwellers were addressed in english.The last remnants of the old highland culture passing away ,and sadly their demise like the American Indians and the Aborigonal, eased by "the water of life" Ake


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:32 PM

And anyone who does not respect Macoll has no right to post here.
His songs and the wonderful Radio Ballads define our music..Ake


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,bari gadgie
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 05:55 PM

free speech my friend...oh and by the way...he was not well thought of by some of the travellers


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:15 PM

Yes your right "free speech".

The travellers had their own music and storytelling and Im sure MacColl would mean absolutely nothing to any of them.
But IMO he did more than any other to inform a generation who would have known nothing but commercial pap.

His writing still has the power to inflame this jaded old spirit to anger indignation pity even love,and thts not an easy thing to do .....Ake


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,bari gadgie
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:38 PM

certainly I must agree with your point on Mc Coll making people aware of the culture, but he was well known to a generation of travelling people who he exploited for his own ends


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:49 PM

I cant agree ,the telling of the story cant be called exploitation.

Im sure the travellers in general were not affected. By MacColls time the real travellers had been replaced by the modern version,who are just like the rest of us ...Ake


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: GUEST,bari gadgie
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM

While the story must be told the source should be respected and not exploited and with all due respect Akenaton, Jimmy Millar was an exploiter of the first order........


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: the travelling people by MacColl
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:29 PM

Given your definition ,"exploiter" could be applied to any writer .
We all exploit our subjects,even here on Mudcat.

Much as we may try to hide the ego, the old devil keeps poking up his head .

MacColl was no more guilty of exploitation than any other,and the benefits of his so called exploitation will be here when most of us are long forgotten...Ake


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