In my time in the very small folk world of the british isles, I was lucky to have been associated with some of the most open minded people I have ever met. Yet there were those who would get up and walk out of the room if someone sang a song in French, or patronised a 'foreigner' when they came to the clubs to play or to sing. This became increasingly irritating as time went by and I felt that I was being pushed away from the music that I loved. I know that xenophobia is traditional, but does that mean we have to preserve it...I was oft' heard to say. Now in the macrocosm, as it were, of the folk world I would like to see that xenophobia doesn't find its way into this world...by definition the 'net is far from insular (which folk clubs are, but attitudes are.

Okay I've started and I'll let you lot finish...this is an effort to create a discussion NOI to anyone...even though I used BenM's name at the top there I was not singleing him out just that his joke was a handy example (sorry Ben). I have found everybody here to be extremely open minded about stuff and I feel that I have, once again, been lucky in the people that I have encountered.

Alistair

I think you might mean PeteM., as there is no BenM. on the Minch thread. And, I am equally sure Pete, who is a great guy, meant it as a joke. I agree with you, though, that a lot of people might not realize that.

Anyone who has read my comments on the subject knows that I am not xenophobic. I've not seen much evidence of it here on the 'Cat since I've been on, which was in January (not quite continously!). I've seen much discussion on the old songs of Foster and others not being PC and whether folk choose to make them so or not.

I am glad you started this thread, because there have been a couple of things which bothered me, too. When I think of trad music, I think of music of all indigenous cultures, so I guess I think of it more as "world" music which, for me, is something to be honoured and respected.

My husband was raised speakign Canadian French, learned Spanish while working in Venezuela; I took Spanish, German, and Latin in school; my son-in-law is from Antigua and his step-mother in CT speaks St. Martin French. We've lived in neighborhoods where several other languages were spoken. We loved it,our kids loved, and most of all, we loved sharing the trad music of each of those cultures with each other and our friends.

I have found most people on the 'Cat to be very openminded and caring. I think, because it seems to be dominated by those of us in the US, Canada, England, Scotland, and Ireland, we may have a tendency to go on with inside jokes, etc. without making sure what we are talking about is clear to anyone reading,including those to whom English is a second language. Although, I've seen a good amount of Gaelic on here, too, I'm actually trying to learn it now, so I can translate those thread names!

Anyway, thanks for starting this. It will be interesting to see what everyone else has to say. we still love ya', Pete!

katlaughing

Canadians, to me, spoke only the purest English as spake by the angels themselves.:)

I remember at about the same time of my life some old holy roller exclaiming, no doubt in reference to some supposed plot by the French Canadians, that if "English was good enough for Jesus and the Apostles to speak and write, it's good enough for me!"

See "Un Canadien Errant" in the database. Though written 100 years later by an exiled Quebec revolutionary, this plaintive song could just as easily express the despair of any of the 10,000 people deported from Acadia in 1755 and subsequent years.

Having vented my abhorrence of xenophobia, let me express my opinion that the Mudcat is not, in any way, shape or form, a haven for xenophobes. To the contrary, I've come to see Mudcatters as some of the most generous, sincere and open-minded people I've ever met. I am proud to be part of the Mudcat experience.

Bob Landry

Oh...Sorry

catspaw

P.S. ... Mandatory catspaw joke is over.

We live in a world and society where the bigotry of the herd instinct becomes paramount. Self-esteem is so important that the easiest attainable positives come from inflicting pain on the minorities. I wrote to someone early on around here that I am rarely offended by anything...except the way we treat each other. Sometimes my greatest fear is that the people who may talk the best line lack the courage of their convictions. Do I fear for my wife and family by taking stands...certainly. But what children do I rear by letting others do my bidding. But we must keep a sense of humor, to quote Lord Byron (George Gordon)...a favorite of mine...

" And if I laugh at any mortal thing, tis that I may not weep."

DO what's right...and to Hell with them!

(soapbox returned to corner)catspaw

Enough of that rant.

Tim... Getting set to go to England for a month this fall, so I guess you've warned by about the ribbing I'm likely to take. Funny, but when my very English wife goes with me to the U.S., the comment she gets most often is "I lo-o-o-ve yoah accent." She just smiles and says, with all sincerity, "I love yours too."

See you at the Press Club....

ddw

Hugzzz earthling! hehe

In the western world xenophobia is all around us, passed down from generation to generation ( even in Quebec, when I was there a couple of years ago I felt embarrassed when I spoke english, everybody could see I was an Anglo and so immediately the enemy. And I must admit, I have travelled all over the world and that was the first time I have ever felt like a 'foreigner'in its negative conotation)but is not natural to us, it is cultural baggage.

catspaw

MMario

Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all captured English soldiers. Without the middle finger it would be impossible to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore be incapable of fighting in the future. > > This famous weapon was made of the native English Yew tree, and the act of drawing the longbow was known as "plucking the yew" (or"pluck yew"). Much to the bewilderment of the French, the English won a major upset and began mocking the French by waving their middle fingers at the defeated French, saying, "See, we can still pluck yew! PLUCK YEW!" Since 'pluck yew' is rather difficult to say, the difficult consonant cluster at the beginning has gradually changed to a labiodental fricative 'F', and thus the words often used in conjunction with the one-finger-salute are mistakenly thought to have something to do with an intimate encounter. It is also because of the pheasant feathers on the arrow used with the longbow that the symbolic gesture is known as "giving the bird".

Down on the border

Down on the border, where do you draw that line?
Well here I can lay down my life for a land that will never be mine
If I was standing on the outside, you wouldn't let me in
It might be my religion or the colour of my skin

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

They're telling you life should be rosy, "ain't you living in your own backyard"?
The stakes are getting higher, time to play that nationalist card
That joker's a wild one, eager to get out of the pack
It ain't so easy, trying to get the bastard back

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Does the fruit really taste better, just because it's home grown?
Why should there be an improvement, when we are ruled by one of our own?
When they come and they tell you. it's time to make a stand
Remember the good and the bad apples, growing on your land

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Whatever country claims you, it's no measure of your worth
You can take no credit, it's just an accident of birth
Why not strive for a union, a federation of states?
Sustained by co-operation, where nations are maintained on hate

Down on the border, when you draw that line
Am I standing inside, or am I left outside?

Roger Gall 1997

The PLUCK YEW thing is really clutching at straws...the word FUCK actually comes from the middle english word (I think this is right) FUCH or somesuch (I'm doing this from memory folks so don't hold it against me) which means to fuse together/to combine.

Alistair. I'm sure I know what you intended, but lets be quite clear that although it is a normal human reaction to make fun of things that scare us, poking fun at others is not necessarily xenophobic in origin. As Bert and Steve note, poking fun at people as "foreign" as the next street is common in the UK, and you don't have to read many threads to see that it is a common trait here, with no derogatory overtones.

I do have to disagree with you about your examples from the Pacific. It is very difficult to attribute motives for actions several hundred years ago even within ones own culture, and to do so for others is even more fraught. I agree that there is little or no eveidence of xenophobia in its literal meaning in these encounters, but don't make the mistake of thinking that this meant there was no hostility to outsiders whether European or from other Islands. The pre European political groupings in the Pacific (the largest being the Hawaiian archipeligo, and the Tongan inter-archipeligal empire) were created by conquest and "removal" of people who were "different". They and the Maori did not fear European visitors any more than Europeans feared them, because both were confident of their ability to survive any hostility, and of the pre-eminience of their own culture.

Having said all that I do accept that styles of humour are not universal, and that others may have taken my post at face value despite what I thought were fairly heavy hints to the contrary, and if so please accept that they were indeed intended in jest.

Right, soap box back to corner.

Cara, you have got rather mixed up I fear. The extended middle digit is a conmmon Western European insult (obviously phallic in origin). There is some by no means conclusive evidence that the peculiarly English use of the V sign for this purpose derived as you note, but Fuck is good Anglo-Saxon and pre dates Agincourt by a long bow shot.

Anyway Xena is a New Zealander after all, so - if any of you'se guys are interested in old saucepan lids, only worn once, still slightly warm....

Pete M

catspaw

Thanks! I'm guessing you mean the hodge-podge of languages, cultures, etc? Me, too!

katlaughing

HOWEVER...A MUST READ is the chapter named "Short Chapter, Long Footnote." The chapter is one word long...FUCK. The rest is a footnote and some of the best and funniest info you can find about the word. Explanations of euphemisms such as "He slept with her." No one has ever successfully fucked while sleeping. Or "Fornication"...anyone who would use the word fornicate cannot be interested in fucking.

Seriously, you'll bust a gut laughing.

catspaw

Pete M

Anyway, I agree with all the Brits on this thread - being Welsh, I know what it is to be gently ribbed about my origins, and know that my ribbers expect to be ribbed in return. It's all phathic communion, as Chomsky said.

However, I can't condone the wearing of white dresses and pointy hoods, or shaving off of hair and wearing Union Flag t-shirts, etc. etc.

I think that anything not intended to cause offence should be taken in the spirit it was intended...

I do remember one incident in my younger years I will admit to. I was in the Army, stationed in Seoul, Korea in 1969. We had a group of Korean soldiers(KATUSA) that were assigned to our unit. A fun loving group of guys whose command of the English language had vastly improved since their assignment to us. The Seargent in charge of the KATUSA and several of us GI's decided it would be fun to teach some of the new incoming KATUSA some new English which they could use. Several days later when our 1st Sgt and CW2 arrived for the start of the day they were "honored" to be met by the new Koreans troops greeting them with such phrases as "Kiss my a**", "Go to hell", and "Your mother wears combat boots", which they had been taught in our late night lanquage course as meaning Good Morning, How are you, and Is there anything you want me to do for you. The powers that be suspected who was behind it, but were never able to pin the act on anyone so no punishment was meted out. I'm sure the statute of limitation has run out so it is safe to tell this now. ;)

Yours snowed-underly,

Dai P.

Not to mention the theoretical origins of a commonly used vulgarity......brief history of French and English conflict hundreds of years ago....

So that's English, History, and Etymology....all from a thread about xenophobia. My dictionary is really getting a workout today. I'm glad I took my vitamins. I'm not sure I've had all the prerequisites for this course, but I'll stick it out for the enlightenment nonetheless. Eyes and ears open, mouth shut.

Regards, Neil

(Again, TIC-{tongue in cheek})!!!!

catspaw

I'm convinced this is a likely origin for the expression "wop." (If you have information to the contrary, please don't try to confuse me with facts. :-)) I would imagine the same scenario taking place in New York, New Jersey, Chicago and other heavy centers of italian immigration.

My mom (from Georgia) said when she married my dad, one of her mother's friends stopped speaking to her because she had married an Italian. I later met a man who said his sister was cut by many of her friends when she married an Italian. It was considered an interracial marriage by many people in those days.

My dad was twelve when he came here, mmario, and he spoke no English so they put him in kindergarten, where he was "surrounded by a bunch of little five year old kids who were so dumb they couldn't even speak Italian."

The only real prejudice I feel I grew up with was towards sheepherders, esp. Mormon ones, because of a dispute my cattle ranching greatgrandfather had with them.He killed one in self-defense in a shootout, they tried to get the court to hang him until the widow came forward and testified that it was the best thing anyone had ever done for her. Her son became my grandad's best friend. (this original material is one of dad's many stories which will be in a book I am working on.)

When people ask my daughter if her husband is black (when they see her twin baby boys, who are mixed) she says, "He is Antiguan". To her, and the rest of us, there is no colour; as she puts it, "We are all of the human race".

katlaughing

Ref: the term WOP. I had always heard that it meant, as someone pointed out earlier, With Out Papers. Those whose passports or other credentials were in order could pass on through the process, while those that had no proper paperwork were detained for processing in a seperate area.

I remember a new restaurant being built in town and no one knew what it was going to be. After several months a sign went up and as we drove past my Dad said, "Aw, Christ (pronounced KEE-RICED), another Dago place to eat!" He was personally hoping for a good Chophouse. After his trip to Africa, Richard Pryor quit using "nigger" in his act...he had seen black people in their own land. It is most important that we know who we are and not what we are called and to take away the power of the words, most powerful as they may be. Perhaps that's why we use them inside the group.

We sometimes go outside the group with friends, but it is always risky. But we do need to develop insights and relationships that eclipse the words and render them powerless. Sometimes the previously derogatory becomes respectful. I had some brief passing thought of this when I referred to Big Mick as a big Mick. It's a funny relationship we build here in cyberspace. I felt I knew Mick well enough, and I credit him with the intelligence and insight needed, to see, without abbreviations or icons, that I meant no harm. I'm sure he too had a passing moment as I did, before he went on saying, "It's just catspaw." I'll take a chance again and go one step further...I think Mick is an erudite, caring, intelligent man and may well have seen the line as a mark of respect...I think he has enough astute insight into ME that he knows I see much more in him than ancestry. He may be an Irishman trapped in an American body, but the person that is the real Mick stands above any label we might attach.

Somehow, sometime, someway...we have got to defuse the words and see beyond language, the dialect, the color. It would be easier sometimes to do that if we all didn't think of ourselves in those terms as well. There is a fine line between the pride of heritage and the anger of bigotry.

At one point or another Mick and I will meet outside of this "village" and when we do I think we'll both be comfortable enough for me to say, "Damn! You really are a big Mick!" To which he can respond, "Geez, a downhome Dago in the flesh!" Then maybe we can do a little Dylan as a compromise.

catspaw

And...you can get out of the litterbox now. Good kitty!

luv ya all! katlaughing

"Ooo you handsome motherfucker, I haven't seen you in a goddamned motherfucking age."

to whit you reply:

"Come in in you motherfucker and take your motherfucking sonofabitch coat off."

humm so we can go around using these words all the time and they would lose their power?

No, I don't think so. but the slow censorship of these words and the fostering of an attitude that makes these words repugnant to use so they are slowly forgotten is the best option.

another thing, you said that Richard Pryor stoped using 'nigger' after "...he had seen black people in their own land." Is the United States not their own land as well?

Although racism does exist here, for a country that is built along similarly diverse nationalities as the U.S. it has a considerably lot less than the aforementioned.

AlastairUK: Whiel agree with your suggestion that the power of words will dissipate through disapproval of their use, I don't think Catspaw meant we should go around and use them will he-nill he. Your example was amusing and brought a hearty guffaw, BUT it will be a cold day in hell before I would ever use that language with my grandsons when they are grown up or not and I know their parents feel the same!

I do use salty, bawdy language and tell risque jokes like Banjer mentions, among certain friends and family, although I have found myself telling people when I think a story or joke crosses the line into offensiveness re' women, racial, or whatever. My only problem about letting words die out is m'slef. How do you change the stripes on a "salty dawg" Kat? (Am I a mass of contradictions or what!?)

What are you doing up this time of day? And, I take it/I hope you meant (like most cats, I crave attention!:-) "Katlaughing" at the beginning of your last message? If so, thank you very much for your compliments. And, yes Catspaw could write an intro, so could Big Mick, and a few others!

My tongue might've been in my cheek, but I was fairly serious about the book, too. I've been thinking about it for a couple of weeks now, everytime I print something off to save, cause it's just too good to get lost in the threads! Almost posted a thead about it the other day. A kind of "Best of the Mudcat: A Folkie CyberCommunity" or "Wisdom of the Mudcat" or, "Wisdom, Humour, Thoughts, and How to Rule the World from the Mudcat*" *with assorted remedies and advice on condom usage"***grin***

My mind was pretty occupied with this last night. I was thinking maybe everyone could post their favourites into one thread or email them to me or you or whoever, then we could categorize them, then do some editing (just frivolous, non-essentials), then joila!

Because it would take up an enormous amount of time, even if all of us pick out our favourites, or if just a few of us make suggestions, or whatever, I was even wondering if there might be a social science grant or something out there we could apply for, as it really would be a new "study" thingy - "a microcosmic distillation of a true and distinct community in cyberland" Ooooo! I'm hummin' now!

I've only been on here since January and have already filled a one inch ring binder of some real gems. Plus I've sent off several packets to my dad, each at least an inch thick.

While I am not independently wealthy, I do have a very supportive hubby, who nonetheless, is really, really happy when I DO make some kind of money from my writing/editing/jewelery-making, so....if we could find grant money or something....anybody out there have experience at grant-writing?

Seriously, but still laughinglyKat p.s. names COULD be changed to protect the innocent...not us! Our families!

The sleepless thing must be going around. I got up at 430a because i just couldn't turn over and fall back asleep! AND, there IS no known antidote for Mudcat addiction, the only thing that ever works is going cold turkey! And, that only works if you want to! Ain't for me!

Trashdumping, ugh...chores, ugh...

As to the book. I don't think a name is as important, right now, as deciding how to choose what to include and who all will do the choosing, etc.

I think it would be doable, with Max's permission and a signed waiver from anyone who wanted their writings to be considered. If folks don't want in it, that is their right. Also, though it would cost a bit more, do people want their photos in it? And, do we want to include a listing of everyone's bands, businesses etc? Do we want to sell ads to Elderly & the rest as a way to finance it? THESE ARE JUST THOUGHTS, FOLKS, THAT'S ALL. I am just throwing ideas out here for brainstorming.

So: yes, Max, is it legal?

Do Mudcatters want this and, if so, will they give peremission for use of their material? Would the proceeds be divided among each with the largest percentage going to the Mudcat or what?

I still would be interestd to know if we could apply for any grants. This is new territory...we are breaking new ground!

Thanks,

katlaughing

BTW...Richard Pryor simply meant that he'd never been anywhere that being black was the norm. Very different for him and made him think about the dignity of his race.

Alistair, your comments are the subject matter of books and thesis papers and they'll be the text for countless more. The United States is unlike anywhere else. Certainly not better though often more arrogant. We can't be compared to anywhere else since no one else is as mixed a bag as this place. We have no long standing traditions as we have no long standing. So in that human need for roots, we are far more prone than most to describe ourselves as *******-Americans. This has led to much infighting over the years as ancestral hatreds have overcome pride of heritage. You asked why that was so important. You can list history back thousands of years...we are only good for two hundred. It's a matter of roots. AND we are the most impatient country...but things move very fast...which sometimes is beneficial and sometimes disastrous. But if you do it twice, it's a tradition. The Brazilian comparison is entertaining, but before I got too far along with it I think a stop at the WorldBank might be in order. Also I can take you places right now where grandmothers call their 10 year old grandchildren saying, "Come here you lil motherfucker,"...and no, they're not black. No need to wait a hundred years here. Like I said, it's an impatient place.

Alistair, there is no way that I can justify many things that go on here, nor in some cases, would I if I could. I'm just a plain old country hick and I can only report things as they are. But like Bobby K., I like to envision and work toward what could be and say why not?

catspaw

katlaughing and Night Owl...It is always nice to get your comments...NOT your ASSHOLES. I really don't know what I'd do with your assholes if I had them so please don't send them.

Now I'm unbothered by the thing that was bothering me and I now have saved myself the embarassment of facing the FedEx person and saying, "There's gotta' be a mistake. I know I didn't order any assholes."

Maybe I can catch a few more Z's.

catspaw

I think it is acceptable to admit that Xenophobic tendencies exist naturally but I do not think that it is clever or pretty to indulge in abuse when it is uncessary.

We may all be part of the new 'cross culturalised' world society because of the internet, tv, radio, cheap communications, gene pool mixing, education and travel but I don't believe for an instance that such a state of mind is sufficient to allow one to say 'I am totally accepting of all other cultures and races'. To believe this is to believe that you have lost your tribal protection instincts - how fast do you think the human psychology evolves (actually there is no evidence that I know of to suggest that it has evolved at all ) ?

Todays tribes are created by the employers (paymasters)and our allegiance is to them. This of course gives us the room to drop our other Xenophobic attitudes as the arena of competition for resources has shifted from other tribes to other companies.

Are we all sitting in ivory towers, comfortably warm sitting at our keyboards; human nature - does it really change ?

Sean MacRuaraidh

kat, and all, yes, yes, yes, let's authorize a book and, kat, dear, will you allow yourself to be nominated as a candidate for its author? I hereby so nominate you. Who wants to start a new thread so we can all argue this idea into oblivion or glory? (I'm sorry, katlaughing is too many keystrokes, and furthermore I have to spell it out as I type it. If you'd prefer not to have your name abbreviated, though, I'll make the sacrifice.)

Some years back the local folk music DJ, Mary Cliff, put together a Christmas program from singing done at the Folklore Society's Christmas party. She phoned each person the day before the show was to air, asking their permission to use their singing in the show. It seems to me this would be a good approach to use with the book. A two-pronged approach would work. First, anyone who has strong feeling about wanting to be excluded, or willingness to be included, can e-mail the designated author up front. Second, the D.A. can check with anyone he or she would like to include in the book who hasn't already stated their preference.

Money is a separate issue. One alternative is an arrangement where the first x dollars go to support Mudcat. Period. Then, if the thing actually makes some real profit (say, more than $300.00 *smile*), figure out a way for some of that profit to go to the people whose words were used. Maybe. That could be an administrative nightmare. How do you apportion royalties? Based on the number of posts? The number of words per post? The number of contentious responses to the post?

As far as profiting from the book, maybe we should be content to have a bio, with booking info etc, for each contributor. That can be done once and not drive some poor accountant crazy. If we start a book thread I'm sure hundreds of ideas will be proposed and argued and twisted and I can already start imagining the condom jokes. But let's do it! - Start the thread, I mean.

Sean, your post was the last one so I'm responding last, to tell you that I agree with you, xenophobia is not just a result of cultural influences and upbringing. Even chimpanzees, who are pretty harmonious in their own band, will go on murderous forays upon bands that border their territory.

Still, not everyone has the killer instinct, but everyone has the instinct to follow the crowd. Young people whose intolerance is a result of following the crowd can be reached. There is a group in this country whose motto is "Teach Tolerance," and that is what they do. They prepare teaching materials which they distribute without charge to elementary through high schools. Often intolerance is just a result of never having thought about what you're doing. And, Sean, there's an example of the human race having evolved a bit: Two thousand years ago, I'm pretty sure, in most parts of the world a course on teaching tolerance would have struck a chord in a lot fewer hearts.

In many parts of the world there's no longer the same survival value in xenophobic feelings that there was even 500 or 600 years ago. Do you see what I'm getting at? If the neighboring peoples are hostile, xenophobia is a survival trait. Trusting, open people get killed or stolen as slaves. The instincively suspicious ones have a real survival edge. Then their progeny are also likely to be instinctively xenophobic. But. In certain parts of the world this hasn't been as true for centuries, and I believe that it leads to milder-natured people.

Recently I found a book that took place in Czechoslovakia during WW II. The author made the comment that the Nazis were using Czechoslovakia as a door to Yugoslavia, but they wouldn't have it easy there, because the Serbs were true fighters. It was so sad to me. The very quality that made the Serbs heroes in WW II is making them villains now. The instinct to fight fiercely is neutral, neither good nor bad, unless you can't turn it off. Then it's bad. If no one is attacking you, or keeping you subjugated, you attack someone.

Well this doesn't solve anything but I think it explains some things. Sean, you pushed one of my buttons. I'm fascinated by the way that various survival needs may have helped the world become the way it is. The way I see it, certain problems can't be solved, human nature being the way it is; but it's the duty of every thinking person who sees the problems, to keep up the fight. You can make improvements, you can fix some things. You just can't fix it all.

catspaw me old hick china :o). Liked the comments. Ok the United States is as much a mixture as Brazil or vice versa. The diversity of races here is always an amazement to me. What I was trying to say was that from the start the people of Brazil agreed unanimously that they wanted their own identity, not italian, not portuguese (the only portuguese that do are the angolan refugees that came to brazil rather than go back to Portugal. They seem to be even more rabidly patriotic towards portugal than the portuguese themselves. No one here calls themselves 'afro-brasileiro' or 'italiano-brasileiro', they are simply 'brasileiro' and also on a wider scale 'Americanos'. Yes , therre are problems here, big problems. after years of being bled dry by unscrupulous politicians and industrialists, we are now struggling to make things fairer. Yes, there is racialism here, of course there is, but not xenophobic, it is classist racism. Who was it that said one 'drop of blood makes you black.'? Well that doesn't apply here, racism is used as a tool to criticise and keep down the lower classes, and used by people that come from a mixed background. So I do believe that there are two types, distinctly different, of prejudice. One is Xenophobia and, as Sean quite rightly pointed out, that one doesn't rely on skin colour. then there is racism which does and is a hatred for those who haven't got the same skin tone as you.

I think it could be argued that xenophobia was a survival instinct, in a world where we did not know that other types of people even existed or the extent of our world. Very natural, but that very instinct that would serve us and does serve animals very well, is now the major threat to the survival of the ONE tribe we all belong to, THE HUMAN RACE, on the ONE WORLD we have.

Maybe it will always be like this i.e. no more competition and tribal instincts will evolve away like our appendices and tails.

I believe that the contributors to this group are living in societies were xenophobia is not a critical survival behaviour - but this may not true across the whole world as there are constant civil wars happening (Africa, Balkans etc.).

It is easy to pass judgement on people for being racist, xenophobic or otherwise but they may have their reasons. On a discussion group like this there is no need for any of it. Since there is no need for it why have it ? If the only reason is that it used as a form of humour sometimes then I say drop it from your text in case you offend someone (IMHO the humour is lost when you put NOI after a statement so that isn't a good alternative ). My advice would be 'If you feel you must get into a racial slagging match with someone then why not ask them for their e-mail address and carry out your discussion away from this group'.

Incidentally - with the population increase thats taking place right now I think we can expect more wars. Alls well if your part of NATO of course - I'm alright Jack etc.

Sean MacRuaraidh

I understand what you are saying, but I think one of the extraordinary thngs about this thread, in particular, is that we all ahve felt comfortable enough with one another to post and discuss the offensive terms we've all heard, learned, and maybe used.

This has happened in other threads, too. I cringed when I first started to read the postings on Vietnam songs; I was worried that everyone would be polarized and angry. I didn't know everyone on here as well then, and I was pleasantly surprised and overjoyed that it seems with distance of time and retrospect of maturity, everyone was very respectful of one another's positions in that time of our world, some were even able to see it from the other person's perspective.

Also, some tribal customs are good and I think we could use a return to some of them, esp. the nurturing of extended family-types, whether it's blood relatives or friends of like mind and goals. I understand about fighting for food, territory, etc.

The only answer I can think of to that, is the more we teach people everywhere about one another,teaching how to understand and accept our differences, even embrace the diversities of culture, etc., the less we will all have to fear. It all boils down, in my opinion, to fear of the unknown or differences.

The example of the animal world is valid, except in the colour issue. I LOVE that my cats and dog are "colour-blind" when it comes to their spots, stripes, etc., as is the rest of the animal kingdom. we can learn a lot from our dogs***smile***:

This was just recently in our paper:

If you can start the day without caffeine,
If you can get going without pep pills,
If you can resist complaining and boring people with your troubles,
If you can eat the same food every day and be grateful for it,
If you can understand when your loved ones are too busy to give you any time,
If you can overlook it when something goes wrong through no fault of yours and those you love take it out on you,
If you can take criticism and blame without resentment,
If you can ignore a friend's limited education and never correct him,
If you can resist treating a rich friend better than a poor friend,
If you can face the world without lies or deceit,
If you can conquer tension without medical help,
If you can relax without liquor,
If you can sleep without the aid of drugs,
If you can honestly say that deep in your heart you have no prejudice against creed, colour, religion, or politics, Then, my friends, you are almost as good as your dog.
(From the Ann Landers column of March 20, 1999; org. from the San Pablo Catholic Church Bulletin, Marathon, Fla.)

HERE'S TO THE DOGS OF THE WORLD!***BIG GRIN***NOI!!!

Something it warms the cockles of my heart to see stated here is that the "intent" should be considered - rather then that the "perception of offense" should be taken for the deed.

I once addressed a co-worker as "my dear" and nearly had my head ripped off. It was not meant to be offensive, she found it to BE offensive. I pointed out to her that:
1)it was not meant in a derogatory way
2)it was an expression of MY emotional state
3)I found it offensive that she felt she could dictate MY emotions
4) regardless of the above, if offense was percieved and no offense was intended, then in my opinion it was the person PERCIEVING the offense that should apoligise
This is a simplistic view, and I will admit that normally I would have apoligized and not used the term to her or in her hearing again...however I was being particularly prickly that day and lambasted her in return for her ripping into me.

So much is subjective, and that is where it truly becomes difficult to handle, especially when dealing with emotional issues. I know growing up I was called by a (commonly percieved as )derogatory nickname for my ethnic group...and it was done by most in an affectionate way. There was nothing derogatory in the use of the name...except by one perticular person. When used by that person it was not my nickname, it was a slur, meant as a slur, and not just to me, but my family,and to many of my friends. This was not just my perception, it was the perception of many...but he could never understand why "wop" said with friendship was acceptable and "wop" said with dislike was not.

MMario

Now I have to go get a few things ready for supper and I can ramble on later. Yet perhaps not. I think we may be reaching the point in this thread where we are all preaching to the congregation.

catspaw

Why is it that to some groups their "identity" bolstered by events which took place hundreds of years ago, is so important that they will continue to demonise those ancient opponents? Why are some groupings able to absorb immigrants who in their turn are happy to consider themselves members of their new home whilst others will support "their" country '..right or wrong..' even though they live half a world away and have only one ancestor from there and that several generation in the past?

The most basic understanding of sexual reproduction gives the lie to any concept of ethnic or cultural purity except in the cases of very isolated populations and over very short time spans, eg Martha's Vinyard between 1630 and the 1880's; whilst a more detailed study of human genetics destroys even broad spectrum theories of cultural displacement such as the supposed isolation of the Celts to the Western edge of Europe, rather than the actual biological and cultural assimilation and evolution.

The use of racial, religious, and cultural caricatures by those in authority to facilitate warfare by portraying them as 'interspecies' conflict has been documented from the beginning of history, but even these do not, in the normal course of events, outlive the conflict that gave rise to them.

So where does that leave us? I am certainly not suggesting that we should not be proud of our past, either individual or cultural, what I do suggest is that we allow ourselves to be proud of all parts of our heritage, not just the bits that are fashionable or appeal to us. Given my more immediate ancestry some might expect me to take a particular side in, for example, the Northern Ireland question. What they are asking is that I should condemn one half of my family because of what they did three or four hundred or so years ago to another part of the family. Now if that makes sense to you then in my opinion Mick is wrong and man is not a reasoning animal, nor do we have moral judgement.

There is plenty of evidence that xenophobia is normal, although I would disagree with Sean about it being a survival trait from a species point of view, which is the only one that counts if you are considering evolution as a driver. Where it does seem to have a survival value, and perhaps this is the key, is in perpetuating power structures. Whether that helps to explain the different attitudes in Brazil and the US I don't know, but I suspect it is a major factor.

So sorry, no brilliant insights, only more questions, but as has been said before, the fact that we can discuss it and that we share the view that "our" community transcends the petty cultural differences fostered by our countries, actual, adopted, or historical, gives me some hope.

Pete M

If you can start the day without caffeine, etc.

I almost predicted the ending and the comparison is possibly not fair but the point is well made.

What bothers me is that it made me laugh at my own patheticness

Sean

Xenophobia is about power. the power that one type of people has over another. The percieved difference in race is an excuse to put someone else down. A good example of this was the Southern United States where 'white trash'was the same, equivelent social class as blacks. but were still considered better than their african-american neighbours. Why? Because of the colour of their skin. So I suppose in a way xenophobia is a survival trait of the human race. It makes us feel better when we can put someone else down.

How can members of the human race killing one another be described as their survival? Surely it is the very opposite? The ones that die do not survive and the ones that do, will do their best to get revenge on their oppresors.

This land is my land, This land ain't your land, I've got a shot-gun, and you ain't got one.

I do agree with Steve Parkes about politicians. I've said pretty much the same thing for years. I think there's an unavoidable flaw in any form of government: overall the people who rise to the top will be the kind of people who are motivated by power, control, and the need for structure. Folks who don't much care about power and control, generally aren't motivated to compete for the positions of power. Once in power, politicians turn to imposing control and structure on the world and their ideas of what needs to be controlled and how, tend to be both restrictive and power-oriented, not people-oriented.

That works fine for people who are economically comfortable and/or worry a lot about law and order, but less well for people who are powerless economically, or more free wheeling (I don't mean criminal!!!) in disposition. There are exceptions, especially with the kind of people who see an abuse and run for office in order to get the power to correct it.

Wow, Steve, I've been trying to make this point for years: that the trouble with politics, in any system, is that it attracts politicians.

Have I put words in your mouth that you didn't mean? Correct me if I'm wrong.... - Rita F

We MUST recognise it as a weakness and not keep swallowing the bait.

There is a great group of people working on this problem, whom you might like to know about. The Southern Poverty Law Center (www.splcenter.org) is a non-profit organization that combats hate, intolerance and discrimination through eductation and litigation. They are the people who created the Teaching Tolerance kits for schools that I mentioned above. I think they are doing good work. They can always use more support from people who feel as they do, that intolerance and discrimination are wrong.

Some of those contributing to this thread are saying that xenaphobia is a survival trait, not a weakness to be addressed and it is to those people that my comments are directed.

But I believe it is ingrained in the species because *at certain times,* and *in certain places,* it is or has been a survival trait. In today's world it is a horror, one of the most pernicious and damaging forces that drive the human race.

I guess I think of weaknesses as character flaws, like greed, and there's truth in that in both cases (xenophobia and greed). But it's also true that human nature has a strong ingrained tendency to be greedy and xenophobic and I believe we've evolved that way for a reason, i.e., the greediest people often had the most offspring and therefore the trait of greed was carried on.

I guess my point is that you can't will away an evolved trait. You can do everything in your power to counteract it, but it will still crop up and be very strong in some people. Arguments and moral persuasion won't influence those people, and you can't educate greed or xenophobia out of the entire human race. But. You can educate them out of a whole lot of people, so let's keep on trying!!!

Shambles, please don't take this post as meaning that I'm giving you an argument on this subject. I'm enjoying very much the opportunity to discuss it with you. We agree on the need to combat xenophobia. My only reservation is that I don't believe you'll ever get rid of it entirely.

Oh. One more thing. "Survival trait" has two meanings. One is that something is a survival trait in the current environment. Xenophobia is not that. I'm certainly not saying that xenophobia should be encouraged to help human survival, not even individual survival much less the survival of the community or the race.

The other meaning, the one I've been using, is that it is so common in human beings because it was a survival trait in earlier times when territorial fights between small groups or tribes were common, and therefore it became a very strong tendency in the human race. That makes it hard to get rid of altogether.

I am enjoying this discussion. I wouldn't keep on with it if it weren't a subject that's dear to my heart. So much of the most tragic news in my lifetime has been a direct result of xenophobia on some group's part. It matters!!!

Bless my sister, she took that as a "teaching moment" and talked to the whole class about us all being the same on the inside, no matter the colour outside. Then she taught them a song (music reigns!) about how special they each and every one are. It almost broke her heart that a little boy, whom she really enjoys, also African American, barely sang, casting his eyes down in a manner reminiscent of the old days of "Massa".

She was so sad and appalled that at that young age they already had the experience to bring those attitudes out. We discussed the home life which must have contributed to this being the case.

And, I wonder, sometimes, what my mixed grandsons will have to face. I know their parents will probably never live close to where i am because they won't want to leave the part of New England they are in because there is a diverse population which makes them more comfortable. Right now, in their four-plex, there are a Cuban family, an Africa American family, a Puerta Rican family, and them, a blonde mostly Scottish/Irish/English and an Antiguan with their beautiful, beautiful baby boys (okay, I might be biased, but they ARE beautiful! Everybody says so! And, any of you who go to Mystic Seaport in June may get to confirm this. I've told Kyrsten they have to go & watch for Mudcat T-shirted people. Maybe I'll send them some that say "We're Katlaughing's family she always brags about! Or the babies could say, "Our grammy's a Kat & she laughs!")

For what she went through to have them (19 weeks of bedrest), I have to trust the Great Spirit and know there was a good reason for those two souls to have joined us and entrust them to the care and protection of the God/dess of my heart.

Thanks for listening,

U-Kno

I did not think that you were arguing with me, but it would be OK if you were, this is a very good place to exchange views, for the reasons you and others expressed so well, earlier. At this time in particular it is good to have people to talk with, the only other thing I have found myself doing, to my surprise lately is going into a church and praying? I feel we at least owe these two things to the ones that are currently suffering the worst effects of our xenophobia.

I do find myself agreeing with your views and most of the others posted in this thread. There isn't much point in posting that though. As with others I only post if I think I can add something to, or challenge what is being said.

I certainly agree that the subject matters, I have only to look a my TV today to see A NATO spokesman say that there are some half a million families being forced from their homes.

I think that it is true that human nature is xenophobic and greedy, but I think that for some people that is an easy cop-out and enables them to carry on doing and saying things, that in their hearts, they know is wrong. For human nature is also caring and selfless and not just in wealthy western countries cushioned from the day to day struggles with these problems. Some of the most notable acts of real charity and bravery are conducted in moments when human beings are stressed, as well as the more despicable acts.

Kat

We all Knownow that we are not a small tribe, but one big one. We have no real excuses to continuing our old skirmishes. The hope is as Mick and others have said is our children, for they already know that and demonstrate it when they take other children at face value. We must stop teaching them to become sad old small minded bigots like us.

Islands and Oasis

Islands and oasis, all the safe places.
Shade from the sun, a place in the warm,
Somewhere to lie,
In the eye
Of the storm
Islands and oasis, it's written on their faces
They can't run, too tired to fight
Leave me please
In peace
Tonight

I've crossed the borders of many lands
I'm used to orders and commands
But those words still cut you like a knife
Why must it be so hard, to lead a simple life?
We don't expect to know the reasons
For we are but strangers here to freedom
We're travelling with no destination
Just keeping low, with no, high expectations

Islands and oasis, all the safe places.
Shade from the sun, a place in the warm,
Somewhere to lie,
In the eye
Of the storm
Islands and oasis, it's written on their faces
They can't run, too tired to fight
Leave me please
In peace
Tonight

In the dark streets of this town
There are some places to be found
Where you can be, but not belong
For soon they will return, to move you on
Your home may be a place of safety
But it was no such place for me
I left the violence and the lies
But the secrets still creep in
When I close my eyes

Islands and oasis, all the safe places.
Shade from the sun, a place in the warm,
Somewhere to lie,
In the eye
Of the storm
Islands and oasis, it's written on their faces
They can't run, too tired to fight
Leave me please
In peace
Tonight

Roger Gall 1998

Bet just talked to them today and I guess it's pretty scary there, too, particularly because of the fear or retalitation. Took her one and a half hours to drive to the base instead of the usual twenty minutes because of all of the press, extra forces and Italians who love to watch the big planes fly out.

I hope you and Mick are right about the children. I know it is true for some. I wish everybody could get the one tribe thing. Thank you Shambles.

katlaughing

We are poised on the edge of a precipice that has been spawned from xenophobia, a centuries old back-and-forth surge of slaughter and reprisal. From our point of objective enlightenment, we observe the genocide of one people against their neighbors and we are outraged, and we seek to punish the perpetrators of this crime. And we fling lightning bolts down at these primitive hate-driven criminals, for the noble purpose of making them stop. But fear of our retribution will only force them to do their deeds under cover. You see, in their eyes, they are seeking justice.

Perhaps we make them stop. But I fear the price of that action. Must we send our young men and women to die in that place as the price of this stopping? Perhaps it is a thing worth dying for. It is certainly an easier decision for those to make who will not be doing the dying. And do we not run the risk of being pulled down by the tentacles of that same cycle of vengeance?

And so our noblest aspirations grapple with the most basic of our fears.

Regards to all, LEJ

I agree wholeheartedly with Mick that we have to teach our children well (groan, CS&N soundtrack goes on), but I would add that we also have to maintain, at great expense, the frightening ability and willingness, to rain down death upon any who threaten the children.

If we only had the wisdom to know when to use that power, and when to keep it sheathed.

Frank i.t.s.

Our wee folk club in east coast Scotland is certainly not that. We have members from several countries and many of our patrons go to the bother of learning songs in different languages! Bulgarian for one!

I think that because "folk" music is every where, we can all understand a little of what each of us is trying to say in our own way. I just wish every one every where would make a bigger effort to try understand their neighbours. We just have this one piece of rock in space to play with- so lets stop farting around!

The "white" population throughout the state dropped below 50% in the month of February. This is the first time this has happened in 150 years. Current mix is about 49% white, 33% Hispanic, 12% Asian, and 6% black.

The intermixing of the races is creating some of the most stunningly, esthetically beautiful children on the face of the earth. A blue eyed girl - of Black, French and Asian parentage is not uncommon, nor is a black eyed blond - of Irish, Asian, Hispanic lineage. In addition to being better looking this "new breed," as judged by college admissions, appears to be more intelligent, and from personal observations hardworking, and even tempered. They celebrate their diversity.

The faces of Califonia have changed...soon the rest of the world will follow.....with such divergent backgrounds in 200 years perhaps the word xenophobic will be as archaic as 'mulatto' is in California today.

My observations on obviously (for we are ALL mixed race) mixed race beauty is that what you say is true they are some of the most stunningly attractive people you can see. The sad fact is in most case I would suggest, they do not yet feel, themselves that they are beautiful or that there is a place where they belong.

Hopefully as you say that will change and we can help it do so.

kat

As this is a bit big now, I will start Xenophobia 2, for new contributions and will provide a link in the next post to this one.