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Busking is begging?

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jimmyt	02 Aug 04 - 07:44 AM
jimmyt	02 Aug 04 - 07:51 AM
Mark Ross	02 Aug 04 - 02:34 PM
breezy	02 Aug 04 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Blackcatter	02 Aug 04 - 04:08 PM
PoppaGator	02 Aug 04 - 04:10 PM
Peace	02 Aug 04 - 05:59 PM
Blues=Life	02 Aug 04 - 09:56 PM
Bobert	02 Aug 04 - 10:25 PM
The Fooles Troupe	03 Aug 04 - 02:26 AM
Blues=Life	03 Aug 04 - 11:14 AM
semi-submersible	03 Aug 04 - 12:25 PM
The Fooles Troupe	03 Aug 04 - 11:41 PM
GUEST,NH Dave	04 Aug 04 - 12:16 AM
PennyBlack	04 Aug 04 - 03:53 AM
The Fooles Troupe	04 Aug 04 - 07:56 AM
The Shambles	04 Aug 04 - 08:51 AM
hesperis	04 Aug 04 - 11:40 AM
PennyBlack	04 Aug 04 - 01:52 PM
The Shambles	04 Aug 04 - 02:07 PM
Nathan in Texas	04 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM
PennyBlack	04 Aug 04 - 02:36 PM
PennyBlack	04 Aug 04 - 02:44 PM
The Shambles	04 Aug 04 - 02:56 PM
hesperis	04 Aug 04 - 03:03 PM
PennyBlack	04 Aug 04 - 07:37 PM
GUEST	06 Aug 04 - 10:42 PM
Bobert	07 Aug 04 - 08:34 AM
alanabit	07 Aug 04 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,Another stupid alias	07 Aug 04 - 11:40 AM
alanabit	07 Aug 04 - 02:09 PM
Peace	07 Aug 04 - 03:23 PM
Blues=Life	07 Aug 04 - 08:06 PM
PennyBlack	07 Aug 04 - 09:47 PM
Bobert	07 Aug 04 - 10:13 PM
Stilly River Sage	08 Aug 04 - 12:01 AM
Peace	08 Aug 04 - 12:47 AM
Peace	08 Aug 04 - 03:48 AM
The Shambles	08 Aug 04 - 05:39 AM
PennyBlack	08 Aug 04 - 09:14 AM
PoppaGator	08 Aug 04 - 02:35 PM
The Shambles	08 Aug 04 - 02:50 PM
Blues=Life	09 Aug 04 - 12:28 AM
PennyBlack	09 Aug 04 - 06:10 AM
Blues=Life	09 Aug 04 - 06:18 AM
SINSULL	09 Aug 04 - 08:59 AM
Stilly River Sage	09 Aug 04 - 09:34 AM
PoppaGator	09 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM
Don Firth	09 Aug 04 - 02:55 PM
The Shambles	09 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 07:44 AM

Glas to know exactly why the world's in shit!! Thanks for clearing that up for us.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: jimmyt
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 07:51 AM

According to MErriem Webster Dictionary. it can mean PAY. as in you work, you receive compensation.(in the form of pay)

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 02:34 PM

Good to hear about this from all of you. I started out 37 years ago in the Village basket houses(shortly after Bruce Murdoch, who was one of my many mentors and role models back then). I then took my act to the streets, from Central Park and other spots in NYC all the way to California, with stops in hobo jungles bars, college campuses and every other place I found myself with a guitar and a few people willing to listen. Let's say it again-IT IS NOT BEGGING! Listen to Utah Phillips on the subject(see GAFFING on his CD LOAFERS GLORY). I just went at it again last month at the Oregon Country Fair for the first time in almost 25 years. I sang for 2 hours on Saturday without repeating myself and was proud of my achievement(even made a couple of bucks from tips and CD sales. When I was in my 20's I could sing all day and be heard 4 blocks away in New York City traffic. I can't go as long now or as loud but I can still do it, and will probably do it some more.

Mark Ross

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: breezy
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 03:02 PM

'rat's butt' I like that one, must use it sometime ,Thanks

4 blocks away?!, well there was probably no traffic then in them days.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 04:08 PM

Here's a question. It maybe moot, as I'm not sure there's any place to busk in Central Florida, but here goes.

I sing. I don't play guitar, with or without singing. I play a bit of tin whistle, but my dexterity has always been limited in my hands so I don't play much. But I've got a good voice and know hundreds of songs, ones that are pretty popular in different generes. I do open mics all the time, with success, and occasionally sing in gigs with others who play instruments as well.

Question: Can a singer be appreciated by himself on the street corner? What do you all think? Would it be worth my time?

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 04:10 PM

I'm inclined to believe Mark *could* project his voice for four New York City blocks back in his younger days.

If he was working at it long and hard the way I was, and considering that he was young (20s) and presumably strong (of voice, at least, as I was, too) -- in other words, if he became an effective streetsinger -- he undoubtedly developed a fairly amazing degree of volume and resonance. Way more than one would ever achieve by staying indoors!

I didn't work Manhattan, but did spend plenty of time in noisy sections of New Orleans and San Francisco, and passersby often told me that they had heard me from blocks away, and were surprised at how far they had to walk before catching sight of me.

Couldn't do it today -- not nearly! I have to really admire Mark for getting back into it again after all these years.

By the way: as many times as I've posted to this thread, I never addressed the original question. OF COURSE it's not begging! -- unless you're not really busking, but just pretending to play music.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 05:59 PM

Hey, Mark. Good on you for doin' that. Looking back, ya gotta admit that the ZigZag Cafe was probably the worst place to work. Roaches, long narrow club and POed mostly-drunk customers at 1:30 AM who paid three dollars for Cafe au Rhum only to find out it was rum flavoured and had as much relation to alcohol as Washington, DC, has to truth. Good places to learn, though. And I do recall hearing you somewhere near 14th Street and Avenue of the Americas (6th Avenue) as I was approaching from a few blocks south. Your voice, your guitar and your harmonica.

Be good, Mark.

Bruce

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 09:56 PM

Jimmyt, you're absolutely right, and breezy is a little full of himself. Webster's defines compensation as

"3. anything given as an equivalent, or to make amends for a loss, damage, etc.; recompense; remuneration; pay."

This has become common usage in the States.

So I disagree with the narrow definition of "compensation means 'making up for something lost' - redressing a balance"

I also disagree with the snide comment, "perhaps something did get lost in American speak and thats why the worlds in the shit." Maybe the world's in the shit from pompous butt-heads who forgot to use their dictionaries before pontificating.

On the other hand, I got to agree with old Bobert and the West Ginny slide rule. I don't really give a rat's ass.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 10:25 PM

Hear, hear!!!

Well said, Blues=Life...

The Wes Ginny Slide Rule

(Bobert's watching TV but I'll tell him what you said during the next commercial...)

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 02:26 AM

So what did Blue=Life say during the next commercial?

Sorry, this should have gone in the TOMSQT thread...

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 11:14 AM

What I said during the next commercial is, That this is not a stupid question soley because buskers are often treated as beggars. I won't give beggars a nickle. A good busker, even if I don't have time to listen long, gets cold hard cash, because I appreciate both the effort in the performence, and the effort prior to the performance in attaining that level of skill. I need all the good karma I can accumulate, so I kick in for buskers.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: semi-submersible
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 12:25 PM

Foolstroupe (28 Jul 04 - 08:34 PM):
I don't see the busking connection very clearly in Harmon's Epistle to the Reader. He seemed to be discussing his use of newly coined terms like "cursitor," suggesting that "vagabond" was a new word once too, and incidentally reflecting on whether it would be taken as an insult.

Must we assume that vagabond includes bard? Or is there another document which shows this musician-vagabond link more clearly?

Maureen

P.S. I'm glad to pay (by donation) for entertainment that brightens my day. But re panhandlers: I'm usually carrying a snack for the family, so I offer to share our oats or oranges or whatever. I don't get many takers!

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 11:41 PM

That was just the intro - I had thought the whole text was there, but hey! I made a mistake!

The "Sturdy Beggars" concept - which included real musos as well as thieves and bullies and pros and pimps, and etc, seems to be a continuing meme in England & as a consequence (via migration) the USA. Perhaps this is where it started was what I was hinting at.

"I'm usually carrying a snack for the family, so I offer to share our oats or oranges or whatever. I don't get many takers"

One might be tempted to think this would sort (to pardon the pun) the wheat from the chaff, but some genuine sufferers may for real reason including embarrassment or food allergies refuse the offer of food - but I suspect that most refusals would be that they only want the money.

Robin

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,NH Dave
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:16 AM

We have a city square, or what passes for one, where musicians and even bands provide impromptu entertainment, usually with an open box or guitar case, business cards and very often with some CDs or Cassettes for sale. I personally welcome this, because I get a chance to hear performers whom I have not heard, and even buy their latest collection. By the same token, they get inexpensive exposure, and perhaps leads for paying gigs. Oddly enough there seems no limit to the variety of instruments being played. I have heard South and Central American bands, players of celtic and baroque music, flautists, and even the odd bagpiper. He generally plays well in the background, but perhaps not far enough for some.

From this, I place such work on the level of introductory albums, a chance to hear something new to me, and for them to advertise their abilities. From this it is plain to see that I don't consider this begging, although the merchants who pay thousands every month for storefronts in this popular location may well feel otherwise, although they're mostly annoyed with the hotdog and sausage carts that may well draw business away from their own coffee and snack shop.

Dave

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 03:53 AM

Begging:
a solicitation for money or food (especially in the street by an apparently penniless person)

busk

to play music or sing in a public place so that the people who are there will give money

Looks Like the answer must be yes - but Is there anything wrong with begging - collecting "Penny for the Guy", "Trick or Treat" (maybe thats Blackmail as well?),Charity Collections, Carol Singing and more fall into the same category.

UK changes in PEL laws will not make "Busking" illegal - they will just mean it will require a license (which street performances/collections require now, in most areas we've come across)

PB

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 07:56 AM

.. but wait! if you call it begging, does that mean you won't need a licence?

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 08:51 AM

UK changes in PEL laws will not make "Busking" illegal - they will just mean it will require a license (which street performances/collections require now, in most areas we've come across)

The present licenses (where they occur in the UK) are not the current Public Entertainment Licence, which is to go. These are local ones, most probably by-laws or ones issued for private property, like the London Underground.

However, the new law has the effect of making anyplace subject to the regulated entertainment permission requiring the new Premises Licence.
No one really knows how this is going to work - or indeed even if it can. I am sure that it will only make busking more complicated legally than it already is.

While it may be true that 'begging' may not appear to be classed as regulated entertainment. Calling one's music making 'begging' may clear you for the Licensing Act 2003 but will take you into yet more legislation.....

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:40 AM

And actually calling it begging may undo centuries of tradition and attempts at educating people that it isn't begging, it's earning money for entertaining people in a public place.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:52 PM

Of course the areas that don't issue a "license" to busk and don't have a bye-law to stop busking tend to have either a policy of Police Intervention on Obstruction or Noise pollution grounds or in some cases actually promote busking. Other problems arise (especially in our case) when the collecting is for charity and not personal gain when a collecting licence is required in all cases.

At present we have to make two applications (even 3in some cases)- 1 to collect for charity, 2 Permission to use the public highway for the collection (or permission from the landowner when in vacant shop doorway, or generally "off Street") and if we sell the badges/Roses (as a minimum donation is requested) A street trading license.

Under the "new" licensing guide lines "busking" in a public place will require a entertainment license which "should be held by the local council" so may not be a problem.

Our Voice has (and still is) raised against some of the changes and stupidity of some of the changes likewise the lame excuses for exemptions etc... e.g. our local Morris team will be able to dance and the musicians play for them - but let the mandolin player us a 5watt amp to raise his instrument so it can be heard alongside a bass drum and a license will be required. But we shall see what we shall see, and the fight can go on!

Re. Begging or not? the above entries were dictionary definitions and not mine;-) and as I said what's wrong with begging - an age old tradition and the base for many traditional songs. Maybe if people have to be educated to believe it's not begging work should be done on changing the dictionary definition to:

Busking:
The Art of obtaining money for entertaining in a Public Place.

then again a rose by any name would smell as sweet.

PB

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:07 PM

Our Voice has (and still is) raised against some of the changes and stupidity of some of the changes likewise the lame excuses for exemptions etc... e.g. our local Morris team will be able to dance and the musicians play for them - but let the mandolin player us a 5watt amp to raise his instrument so it can be heard alongside a bass drum and a license will be required. But we shall see what we shall see, and the fight can go on!

Not sure that the music for Morris is required to be non-amplified in order to be exempt - just that it is integral to the dancing. It appears to be a problem to play the same music - without the dancing, however, as that would require it to be licensed....

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Nathan in Texas
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:25 PM

A couple of points:

Many people are delighted to see buskers, few welcome beggers. When I vacation in Galveston, Texas, part of the fun is having a chance to busk on the sea wall. Last year a car pulled to the curb and a family piled out and took my picture. The parents said that their child had been disappointed with Galveston because she hadn't seen any street performers, and I had "made their day."

My accountant assures me that, for tax purposes, I can write off the expenses of my vacation if I report even a few bucks made busking.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:36 PM

Just going off the quote in the last Tome I was sent from the DCMS - which appeared to be a straight print out of the Q&A web pages:-

"Morris dancing or anything similar, plus any unamplified live music that is 'integral' to the performance, will be completely exempt from licensing"

Hey but they don't always tell the truth - do they?

PB

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:44 PM

Looks the same here as well

PB

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:56 PM

Morris dancing etc.
11 The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this
Act to the extent that it consists of the provision of —
(a) a performance of morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature or
a performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a
performance, or
(b) facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment of a
description falling within paragraph (a).

Sorry Penny you are right and I been reading this stuff for far too long....

You could always argue that (b) would cover and exempt your amplified mandolin or PA...

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 03:03 PM

Well, begging gets a lot more annoying than music, especially if they come up to your face, or start telling you to give them more. (I was usually able to shake those ones off very quickly by explaining that I wasn't exactly well off, but sheesh.)

I've never had a problem when giving food to a beggar though. But some people have told me that they've had to be careful when accepting food because sometimes there were nasty things in the food. I guess I look trustworthy or something.

I guess giving to beggars can be considered a service to the soul and they provide the opportunity for that as their part of the deal.

But at the same time musicians are doing something valuable and trying to earn a living, beggars are mostly just sitting there and trying to make people feel guilt or pity enough to give, unless the beggars are trying to entertain as well. An important difference.

I know someone who had this beggar near where he worked demand that he give the beggar his $10 lunch money instead of just the dollar he gave... the beggar in question claimed that his car had broken down in front of the government building and he was trying to make enough money to go to another city. Guess what... that was last year and now this year the same guy's car has inexplicably "broken down" in front of the very same building.

If the begging is for a specific reason rather than pure greed on the part of the beggar, then fine. Some people really are in need. But the beggar needs to be honest about it, and not pushy or mean. And it's still different from entertaining people with a skill like music or dance or fire-breathing.

I dislike giving money to people who aren't trying at all to improve their lives, who are JUST trying to exist on the generousity and guilt of others and who do not give anything back. Maybe I'm ungenerous that way - maybe that's because I've always tried to give something back, which immediately makes it not begging.

Some beggars I knew in Toronto would be quite entertaining. Some would be pushy or mean... I gave a woman a dollar once and then didn't have any money the next week I was there, she was very pushy, following me for half a block. I also began to suspect she was using the money for drugs.

Anyway, there really is a difference between entertaining and begging, enough so that you can tell which one it is.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 07:37 PM

Shambles - tell me about it! There's been so much said and done no wonder we're all confused but letters are still going out and MPs locally certainly recognise my handwriting.

We actually used the mandolin example in an email to DCMS and they came back with a resounding "no it would require a license" - but at least they put it in Black and White and didn't hum and ha like they have been doing.

I noticed that a lot more has been confirmed in the Q&A pages included Live transmissions not requiring a license but Video Recordings will - still wonder if Action Replays will need a license :-)

Sorry we've drifted off topic - so....

I've met some "Beggars" that have been more entertaining than "Buskers".

How many "Buskers" out there put in Tax returns?

PB

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 04 - 10:42 PM

YES!!!

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 08:34 AM

I beg to differ, GUEST!

As I have pointed out, artists are entitled to be compensated (Paid, if you will) for their many years of training. But beyond that...

...there is an unspoken contract involved in busking that both tne artist and the listener understand. Buskers don't actively appraoch the listener as do beggers but set up in areas where the listener makes the active decsion to take the time to atop, listen and appreciate. It is the listener who is actively decides wheteher or not to become involved in the appreciation of the art that the busker, much less actively is offering. It almost like a gallery or museum, but with less overhead, that is open to the public and has a donation box. And, as a museum or gallery, no one is going to arrest you or confront you should you choose to enjoy the art and not pay but most people do have a feeling that, as they have enjoyed the work that has gone into the art, they will make a small donation.

Busking is very much the same. Unlike begging, there is no unlying "guilt" that is being used to extort money from folks. Buskers don't put up sign that say, "Starving Vet" 'er "Homeless" 'er anything like that. If they did, then, yes, that would be begging, inspite of the music. But they don't.

I'm stickin with, "NO"!!!....

BObert

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 09:50 AM

Bobert is right of course. I just admire his good mannered and well reasoned reply to the "Guest 06/08/04 at 1042", who by contrast had no manners, no reason and no name.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: GUEST,Another stupid alias
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 11:40 AM

No Name? That is bloody rich on a board where almost everybody hides behind aliases.

By the way, unless you are busking on a licensed pitch then you are begging - thats the law.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: alanabit
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 02:09 PM

Previous "guest": I have never hidden behind my name here and my address and full name have appeared more than once. You have the damned rudeness to insult people you know nothing about without even giving yourself a name which can be identified with other posts.
On the subject of the law, it's authority on whether an activity is begging or not is pretty questionable anyway. In reality, busking is either restricted or not restricted by a complicated array of different laws. Licensed pitches exist in very few places and they are very rarely profitable. That is the case in the UK, in Germany and in most other European countries. I will let our American colleagues speak for themselves.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 03:23 PM

How anyone can mistake busking for begging is beyond me. That would make every salesman/woman who does a 'cold call' a beggar. Sometimes I beg to differ, but this time I busk to differ.

Bruce M

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 08:06 PM

Penny, I'm not sure you understand the difference in the definitions.

Begging:
a solicitation for money or food (especially in the street by an apparently penniless person)

busk

to play music or sing in a public place so that the people who are there will give money

You equated these two. How about: "To work in a garage fixing cars so that the people who are there will give money." The only diffence here is the occupation and the location. Is this begging? No, this is working.
How about "To work in a public place fixing cars so that the people who are there will give money." I've paid mechanics to fix my dead at the side of the road car, while it was still at the side of the road. Is this begging? Once again, no, this is working, only here the only difference is the occupation.
There is a certain social contract inherent in busking. To play on the street, with an open guitar case (even if seeded with a few bucks) is NOT begging. There is an invitation to contribute if you like the music, and to walk if you don't.
Finally, it's not begging if for no other reason that a person who owns a guitar hardly qualifies as "an apparently penniless person."
So let's not only give the buskers a break, let's kick in some cash.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 09:47 PM

Penny, I'm not sure you understand the difference in the definitions

Maybe not? - but I'm not sure you do either and I don't accept The Garage comment.

I don't expect to come back to my car parked on the street to find it's a had a full service without requesting it (however good the mechanic)and see a hat next to the mechanic saying "Thank you"

I also feel in a lot of cases the Busker Does give the impression of being penniless - if nothing else than the fact that they have a hat on the floor asking for money, often dress scruffy etc...

as I have read through the above many of the writers (even those who have opposed the Buskers begging theory) have made comments like "but it depends how well they play" etc. who decides that?

what it boils down to is they are there asking for money. As for a "social contract" - male cow excreta! Just excuses for Buskers worrying about the stigma that has become associated with the term "Begging"

I also haven't seen many Buskers coming forward stating that they make Tax returns? and although this wouldn't change my opinion that Busking is begging, it would convince me that Buskers actually believed they were doing a job of work and not just doing what they enjoyed doing and solicited money from passers by for doing so.

I still believe from the dictionary definitions that Busking is Begging and will do until someone comes up with a better argument than yours Blues=Life.

However I have not criticized either busking or begging.

I am Happy to state that we go busking/Begging every week to raise money for charity - because the money goes to charity doesn't change the fact that we are begging, because the audience appears to enjoy what we do doesn't change the fact we're begging, we have no contract, verbal written or Social we do what we enjoy doing and people throw money in a bucket we beg them to give us that money - and thank everyone of them for doing so.

PB

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 10:13 PM

Okay, PB, but I think you are splittin' hairs over definitions here...

I play at a farm and flea market just about every Sunday. Various venders set up, sell fresh produce or collectables. Most set up 10 X 10 tents. I do the same. There is no open guitar case. No tip jar. I do not look like a street person. I play sitting on a folding chair and frequently have a harmonica player with me. On any given Sunday people will walk by and find a place to leave a couple of bucks. Why? Well, back to the social contract that you insist does not exist. If it exists in the minds of folks walking thru a farm and flea market when I am only there to provide a certain Americana ambiance, then I would suggest that a "social" contrct is indeed understood by more folks than yourself. Most folks get it. Sorry you don't. Heck, I don't even consider myself busking but the public at large does feel a responsibility to support its artists...

Like I said, sorry that you feel diferently. Maybe artists should just get daytime jobs and whenever they are playing out and someone tries to pay a gratitude for their art, stop in thre middle of the song and tell those folks to suff it...

Geeze...

Bobert

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 12:01 AM

I still believe from the dictionary definitions that Busking is Begging and will do until someone comes up with a better argument than yours Blues=Life.

However I have not criticized either busking or begging.

PennyBlack, the very nature of the argument you're making is a criticism of buskers and begging. And that's a lot of strident self-righteousness in your stated view of busking--after many here have already characterized the activity as work, not begging. By insisting that your understanding is the correct one you're not endearing yourself to members of this thread. You seem, instead, to be trying to justify your own performances in the name of charity. Are they so poor as to consitute a masquerade for begging? If the answer is "no" then why presume anyone else's performance is a masquerade?

The buskers I've seen over the years have appeared talented and in the context of street performance have generally been modestly and/or moderately dressed, to suit the vagarities of working on the street with total strangers all around. They want to call attention to their music, not generate value judgements regarding the cost of their clothes and whether they "deserve" to be rewarded for their performance. I expect that this must be a very careful consideration, along with making the choice to be a street performer in addition to or instead of getting a more culturally acceptable steady job.

And I would politely point out that whether a busker turns in a tax return or not is none of your business. Do you ask the wait person in the restaurant every time you eat if they declared all of their tips? Do you ask your hairdresser if he/she declares their tips, or if perhaps s/he cuts a little hair on the side (under the table)? Then why ask if buskers turn in tax returns? That's between buskers and their own consciences and their personal relationships with the tax offices.

SRS

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 12:47 AM

Regarding ANYONE paying taxes. I would LOVE to pay the same rate of tax that Enron did.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 03:48 AM

"I still believe from the dictionary definitions that Busking is Begging and will do until someone comes up with a better argument than yours . . . ."

This do it for you?

I have auditioned for various things in my life: song writing contracts, recording contracts, teaching jobs, etc. Basically, I was doing what buskers. I wasn't begging. I was busking. Sometimes they liked my performance enough to hire (pay) me. Sometimes not.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:39 AM

The following is what Penny came up with:

Begging:
a solicitation for money or food (especially in the street by an apparently penniless person)

busk

to play music or sing in a public place so that the people who are there will give money.

Looks Like the answer must be yes - but Is there anything wrong with begging - collecting "Penny for the Guy", "Trick or Treat" (maybe thats Blackmail as well?),Charity Collections, Carol Singing and more fall into the same category.

It may look to Penny as if the answer is yes but I see nothing conclusive here. My little dictonary gives SOLICIT: ask earnestly for or seek or invite (of prostitute) accost (man) for imoral purposes.

Are buskers 'soliciting', in that sense? Do solicitors, solicit? All these words must remain, largely a matter of opinion. Sometimes these opinions (or prejudices) get put into by-laws etc and are created usually by people in conventional (and respectable) professions or those weathly enough not to need a profession at all. Again these are not conclusive - just indicitive of our social divisions and the reasons why some feel they need to beg and others judge this.

Perhaps buskers, beggars, street sellers and prostitutes would write a diferent dictionary?

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:14 AM

Brucie: sorry but what are Buskers Auditioning for? I find it hard to accept that Busking is the same as going for an Interview.

The Shambles: So`lic`i`ta´tion
n. 1. The act of soliciting; earnest request; persistent asking; importunity.
2. Excitement; invitation; as, the solicitation of the senses.

Stilly River Sage: There are such things as Professional Beggars (or maybe all that do it to make a crust are?)who I'm sure also work very hard at their profession.

You seem, instead, to be trying to justify your own performances in the name of charity I said: because the money goes to charity doesn't change the fact that we are begging (all be it by proxi)

And I would politely point out that whether a busker turns in a tax return or not is none of your business Really?

Maybe I mis-read the topic? "Busking is Begging?"

Most of the answers above would be more on the topic of Are Buskers Talented, is busking a profession, do buskers work hard?

I have simply, looked at the definition of the two words - placed those definitions on the thread and stated my opinion on whether those definitions could apply to both pastimes. Which is yes?

I do not criticise either Busking or Begging nor Buskers or Beggars and just state several observations - If I upset anyone by stating my opinion on what is after all a discussion board - sorry but "that's life".

Brucie: MY understanding, if it's not yours or anyone else's Fine - I didn't comment to convert, just to add MY opinion, which is that Busking is Begging, my reason is based on the two definitions stated and nothing I have read so far in this thread has changed my mind - if that's your aim in life feel free?

and if we look to the origin of the word Beg and it's association with Lambert Begue and the Mendicant Order and maybe compare this with the music making of Hari Krashna or Salvation Army, why should anyone feel there is a stigma attached to Begging?

and if we look to Busking and the origin of the word busk coming from the French busquer which means "to Prowl"

which would you rather be associated with a charitable group or a Prowler :-)

and to pass on a quote made to me "Busking is Begging to music"

P.B.

"I'm a hard man to ignore - but well worth the effort"

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:35 PM

Penny, if you insist upon characterising street musicians as beggars, so be it. You're not the only one. Now I know that you're one of the majority of passersby who don't tip -- no big deal. I'm just dismayed that such a misanthropic individual is participating in a musician's forum.

Many years ago, when I was busking full-time, I did not file a tax return. If I had gone to the trouble to file with the IRS, I would not have owed income tax because my annual income was below the threshold for taxation. It's true that I failed to pay FICA "payroll" taxes, but then again I am not credited with having made any Social Security contributions over those few years, so the loss is as much my own as the government's.

If and when I start back again as an older adult with a full-time, fully-taxed day job, I would probably not declare whatever little extra income I would collect. In any event, if I *did* feel constrained to make full disclosure -- for example, if I were conspicuous enough that I thought the government would know about my musical activities -- I'm sure that I could declare enough busking-related expenses to show a loss and, in the end, pay *less* in net taxes.

I do not believe that the tax issue has any bearing on the question of whether playing in public for tips is "begging" or a legitimate way to earn income from voluntary contributors.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:50 PM

PennyBlack is entitled to their opinion, without being called names. This is the nub of this view.

I have simply, looked at the definition of the two words - placed those definitions on the thread and stated my opinion on whether those definitions could apply to both pastimes. Which is yes?

I have looked and consider the answer to be no. But it remains a matter of opinion.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 12:28 AM

PennyBlack:
I have several problems with your definitions. First, there is the problem that you see them as being equivalents. I see them as being definitions by genus and species, in the Aristotelian method. Your definitions were:

Begging:
a solicitation for money or food (especially in the street by an apparently penniless person)

busk:
to play music or sing in a public place so that the people who are there will give money

The genus in begging is a solicitation for money or food. The species (i.e. that which differentiates begging from any other solicitation of money or food) is "by an apparently penniless person.

The genus in busking is to play music or sing in a public place. The species is that the people who are there will give them money.

From a strict logician's point of view, even using your definitions, these are not equivalents.

Secondly, the real problem is that you got your definition of busk from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary. A quick search of the Internet tells us that:

"The new Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary gives you everything you need to learn English and pass exams!
It's bang up to date, easy to use and comes with a great CD-ROM which takes your English to another level."

In other words, it's a student dictionary. Let's look at some other, perhaps more in depth sources.

The Concise Oxford English Dictionary (www.askoxford.com) defines Busk as:

busk: verb 1. play music in the street for voluntary donations.

voluntary: adjective 1 done, given, or acting of one's own free will.

Whereas beg is defined:

Beg: • verb (begged, begging) 1 ask earnestly or humbly for something. 2 ask for food or money as charity.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary defines busker as:

n. 1. a person who entertains people for money in public places (as by singing or dancing)

WordNet Dictionary defines busker as:

Noun- a person who entertains people for money in public places (as by singing or dancing.)

So, if you want to keep begging when you're dancing, go right ahead. We'll try not to let you know you're busking.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PennyBlack
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 06:10 AM

Poppagator: Penny, if you insist upon characterising street musicians as beggars, so be it. You're not the only one. Now I know that you're one of the majority of passers-by who don't tip -- no big deal. I'm just dismayed that such a misanthropic individual is participating in a musician's forum.

Many years ago, when I was busking full-time, I did not file a tax return (here in the UK it is a criminal offence not to declare earnings) I'm just dismayed that such a misanthropic individual is participating in a musician's forum

I think you should change your name to Robin Hood. ;-) and I should be banished for having an opinion and stating it :-( Does that make you a Fiddling Busker or Just a dishonest Beggar?

When did I either say or imply I don't "tip"? in fact I have and do as the occasion warrant give to both Beggars who either offer entertainment as an incentive to give money and those who don't - neither do I characterise street musicians as Beggars simple answered the Topic's question with a dictionary definition - If you want to work from a different dictionary fair enough.

Shambles: We agree! to disagree but there's nothing wrong with that is there?

Blues=Life: I reiterate, NOT my definitions, dictionary definitions (sources: Webster's & Concise Oxford 5th edition)- and don't forget the parenthesis (especially......)

From the definition you quote:

Of course one would also need to define entertain - in your terms at what point would your defined "Beggar" become a "Busker"?

If I understand what you imply above, I would presume if the person asking for money offers me something I don't find entertaining he would be a "Beggar" if I enjoy his offerings and find them entertaining he then becomes a "Busker" - whether an individual enjoys, or not, some form of entertainment (However technically good that form may be) must be a matter of individual choice? so what is a Beggar to one Person is a Busker to another? and so the answer to the original post must be Yes and No (of course).

Us Dance? have you never heard of the Richter scale :-)

P.B.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 06:18 AM

PennyBlack, I taught philosophy for many years. The number of informal fallacies in your argument boggles the mind. But, since logical argument won't work, we'll just agree that this is your opinion, so you are most welcome to it. You know what they say about opinions...and you are the definitive proof of the old law.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 08:59 AM

The only thing I miss about the NY Subway is the surprise entertainment offered in the trains and on the platforms. Everything from doowop on the #1 to flamenco dancing at Roosevelt/Jackson Heights. I never saw it as begging. After a grim day and a grimmer commute I was always grateful for the moment of pleasure. In summer, I would occasionally see some very young break dancers hoping to be discovered - some amazing talent there. I always carried a few singles in my pocket and when the performance deserved it - a fiver.

I have to admit I always pass up the mimes- annoying little idiots obviously begging for attention. But how could anyone resist a piano on wheels and a concerto in the park? When I worked near Grand Central there an elderly black man who sang spirituals every morning in the tunnel between the 7 and E trains. What a great way to start the morning. And a nice break from the panhandler with an artificial leg whose sad story changed from day to day -he lost it in Viet Nam, he was run over by a train, infection, cancer - and who threatened to come back tomorrow and rob me if I didn't give him money today. That's begging.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 09:34 AM

Sinsull,

The acoustics in the subway, between trains, can be quite magical when someone performs down there. I heard some great stuff at Columbus Circle last summer, but there were too many trains for it to have a sustained effect. The traffic cancelled out the accoustics.

Have PennyBlack and BeardedBruce met yet? They ought to hit it off like a house-afire with their persistence and logical fallacies.

SRS

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM

PennyBlack:

OK, I'll just agree to disagree. At this point, all we seem to be arguing about is semantics. As a former philosophy student myself, I tend to agree with much of Blues=Life's criticism of your logic, but who really cares?

You seem determined to classify busking as begging, but on the other hand you don't seem to condemn the practice, so it makes no sense to split hairs.

RE: Taxes -- In the US, as in the UK, the letter of the law requires all income to be reported. In practice, some types of income are rarely if ever voluntarily reported, including tips, gambling winnings, etc. In many cases, *if* a taxpayer were to report such income, he/she could also report equal or greater offsetting expenses or losses, and it is simpler (both for the individual citizen and for the authorities) not to bother at all.

"Big Brother" doesn't yet seem capable of tracking every possible source of cash-basis self-employment income, at least in the US. Is the UK so much smaller that the government can keep a closer eye on everyone's business? I would hope not.

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 02:55 PM

I repeat what I wrote above: "busking" is a relatively modern term (chiefly British) for what minstrels and troubadours did in centuries past (and remember, many of the older narrative and lyrical songs that are now regarded as traditional ballads and folk songs came from the poetic and musical talents of these minstrels and troubadours [read The Wandering Scholars by Helen Waddell]). If they were not either lucky enough to gain the patronage of a noble or aristocrat and work in a manor house or castle--or if they did not want such a gig--they would sing in the town square or in taverns or other public places in the hope that those who enjoyed their music would reward them with a few coppers.

It is not begging. It is a time-honored tradition.

Merriam-Webster defines "beg" or "begging" thusly:

Main Entry:   beg
Pronunciation:   beg
Function:   verb
Inflected Form(s)
Etymology:   Middle English beggen
transitive senses
1 :   to ask for as a charity
2 a :   to ask earnestly for : ENTREAT   b :   to require as necessary or appropriate
3 a :   EVADE, SIDESTEP (begged the real problems) b :   to pass over or ignore by assuming to be established or settled (beg the question)
intransitive senses
1 :   to ask for alms
2 :   to ask earnestly (begged for mercy)

Wikipedia offers the following definition:

busking is the practice of performing in public places to receive donations [emphasis mine] of money. The performance is often musical, but juggling, comedy, and sometimes magic is also displayed.

Note the word "donation." A donation is a gift, or contribution, as in "voluntary contributions will be accepted with thanks." Many long-lived and well-respected institutions and services survive by voluntary contributions. I leave it to you to make your own list. It's quite educational to do so (e.g. do you go to church? Watch public television? Listen to public radio? Drop a few coins in the can beside the cash register for breast cancer research? Uh--support your local troubadour?).

THIS should settle the matter once and for all.

Busking is most assuredly not begging.

Don Firth

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Subject: RE: Busking is begging?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 03:25 PM

Busking is most assuredly not begging.

I agree Don but does your explanation mean tht asking for a donation is begging but receiving a donation is not?

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