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No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?

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Tim Leaning 14 Oct 10 - 11:38 AM
Hesk 14 Oct 10 - 11:54 AM
Tattie Bogle 14 Oct 10 - 12:04 PM
Will Fly 14 Oct 10 - 12:41 PM
Tootler 14 Oct 10 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Oct 10 - 12:52 PM
Old Vermin 14 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 14 Oct 10 - 01:32 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Oct 10 - 02:01 PM
Tim Leaning 14 Oct 10 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 14 Oct 10 - 02:31 PM
Tim Leaning 14 Oct 10 - 02:32 PM
TheSnail 14 Oct 10 - 02:59 PM
Phil Cooper 14 Oct 10 - 03:51 PM
Rob Naylor 14 Oct 10 - 05:01 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 10 - 06:45 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 14 Oct 10 - 07:36 PM
Tattie Bogle 14 Oct 10 - 09:04 PM
Stringsinger 14 Oct 10 - 09:20 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 10 - 09:22 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Oct 10 - 11:24 PM
Rob Naylor 15 Oct 10 - 03:09 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Oct 10 - 04:12 AM
Arthur_itus 15 Oct 10 - 04:30 AM
buddhuu 15 Oct 10 - 04:45 AM
Slag 15 Oct 10 - 04:55 AM
Hesk 15 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 06:48 AM
curmudgeon 15 Oct 10 - 07:39 AM
Old Vermin 15 Oct 10 - 07:48 AM
Old Vermin 15 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 08:05 AM
Old Vermin 15 Oct 10 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,Woodsie 15 Oct 10 - 11:28 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Oct 10 - 02:04 PM
Genie 15 Oct 10 - 06:53 PM
Tootler 15 Oct 10 - 06:57 PM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 07:01 PM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 07:02 PM
The Sandman 15 Oct 10 - 07:05 PM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Oct 10 - 07:21 PM
Slag 16 Oct 10 - 02:54 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Oct 10 - 05:03 AM
The Fooles Troupe 16 Oct 10 - 05:08 AM
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GUEST,Esme WeatherwaxI 16 Oct 10 - 05:21 AM
Tim Leaning 16 Oct 10 - 05:35 AM
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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:38 AM

Nothing Dub can be folk.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Hesk
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:54 AM

Hello Foolestroupe,

I see that you have diagnosed Hamish as having a dose of "Walking About Vaquely".
I thought I was the only one who had that particular illness. It is so good to know that I am not alone.
It is very hard carrying the burden of knowing the difference between Folk and Non Folk, and yet having to keep it a secret, that the only recourse is to do the above.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 12:04 PM

Someone will probably sing "Autumn Leaves" tonight: that's not folk, unless...maybe a nice wee finger-picking accompaniment??
Pachelbel's Canon - not folk but that chord progression re-appears in 100's of "folk songs".

And Trad Irish - Tom Paxton also has had his "Last Thing on my mind" given this accolade.
And Eric Bogle was pronounced dead long before his time, when Tony Blair said that his favourite song was "No Man's Land (Green Fields of France) - written by a First World War soldier", as Eric loved to tell us at his concerts!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 12:41 PM

This isn't folk either - but isn't it great?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 12:50 PM

There's always this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXa9tXcMhXQ

or this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF68OyTlP4E

or even this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DDEl7JnWvo&feature=related


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 12:52 PM

I was on the bus today and it went past a Conservative Club (Northern variety - probably not the same as a Conservative Club in Surrey - but Tory b.....ds all the same!). They were advertising a forthcoming evening featuring a 'Beatles Tribute Band' (a concept which leaves me feeling a trifle queasy). I bet if you were unlucky enough to attend that event you wouldn't hear much folk music!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM

Stringsinger "4. Highly developed composed music through the ages including Musica Antiqua"

So how about the fragment of Mozart that evolved into Michael Turner's Waltz, somewhat extending its presence by so doing?

Other tunes? Tunes people can whistle, even. The RAF March past - the number of people who could whistle that. And, literally, the other side of the 78. The Dam Busters March. Written by Eric Coates before his commission for the film. Orchestral. Used as mouth music by football crowds and by bright young things in drinking games.

Colonel Bogey? Composed by Kenneth Alford [Lieutenant F. J. Ricketts] in 1914. Very much in the oral tradition as a tune. As for the various words....

As for the couple of internal sales ladies who used to hum or la the theme from The Great Escape on Friday afternoons.

'Folk' in this context is merely a semantic label, anyway.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 01:32 PM

How can it be music of the lower classes? I like it and I am about as high class as you can get outside of a palace...

If the thread must continue, then take the word folk out and ask what is music? My responsible adult is a bell ringer, and they class that in their minds as being music. Think it through, their "methods" are either steeped in history or written by a bloke yesterday and have more than a "ring" of tradition about them. But.. be buggered if I would call it folk music...

Folk music is what ever drifts into your head when you hear the term I suppose. So, for me, it is blokes with beards and sandals, women with ethnic skirts and issues, and somewhere along the line, blokes like me who have a nostalgic sense of recapturing a youth spent in upstairs of pubs with candles on the tables, and who are grateful for the attention when people clap as we sing songs about something we have never experienced...

Bloody good fun though, all the same.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 02:01 PM

Ooh, did someone mention John Connolly? Now that's got me remembering back to Otley Folk Festival a few years back...I had such a great evening..and of course, The Duncan McFarlane Band were there too...

From the old, now defuncted BBC board..from (cripes) FIVE years back! Not sure who wrote this, but they seemed to have had almost as good a time as I did! ;0)

>>>>Nah then...Otley Folk Festival
Messages 1 - 20 of 20
< Previous 1 Next >

Message 1 - posted by U1702831 (U1702831) , Sep 21, 2005

So why didn't you all tell me about Otley Festival then? Come on…why have you all been keeping it quiet from me?

I…well….how do I convey to you what Otley Folk Festival is about?

OK…here we go then. Happiness….that's what Otley is about…laughter, twinkly eyes, Yorkshire accents …and friendliness. Oh! Everyone is SO friendly, I've never know anything like it!….and Yorkshire Fish and Chips!

Mmmmmm….do you know they serve you tea as part of your meal in Yorkshire….and the sweet lady who brings it to you, smiles from ear to ear and they charge half of what they charge down here…and your plate is piled high with food.. AND they still have tomato sauce and vinegar in….bottles! Eee champion! No messy bits of plastic wrappers that put your BP up and make you go and not only that but Yorkshire people talk to you in the restaurant! Yup!! Champion champion!! And they laugh and giggle and say things like "Eee you know where you are with fish'n'chips and then everyone chortles together….Oh it was a great meal…great company! Eee…it were champion!

So…Saturday evening started in the wine bar…well…actually I thought it was the wine bar, but it turned out to be…..Otley Folk Club! ME….in a Folk Club! And it wasn't scary…it really wasn't! I think I was told it was a wine bar so I wouldn't run away….

Anyway, we got there at 7.30pm, having driven for nearly 6 hours all the way up from The Isle of Wight… and then…. We were met by a 'House Full' sign! Can you believe it? I mean 6 hours in the car and the ONLY thing that kept me from experiencing Extreme Cabin Fever was the thought of seeing The Duncan McFarlane Electric Band at the end of it….and then a 'House Full' sign appears….but luckily for us four people came out and we were able to go in. This was extremely fortunate as I was about ready to commit some truly dreadful deed, in order to get in, and could see myself spending the next few years in Holloway Prison if we'd been left outside. But The Gods were smiling on us, so we went in and found a small corner to literally squeeze into. Eee…it were reet 'ot in there!

Cont.

Message 2 - posted by U1702831 (U1702831) , Sep 21, 2005

Cont…..Robin Garside and John Connolly were on when we arrived… they were just about to sing' Punch and Judy Man' John was telling us how he wrote it….on his Honeymoon…well…they were at Sidmouth Festival at the time so that was perfectly OK …..and instantly I was home…back in Sidmouth…yet standing in Yorkshire…isn't that weird….and it was a song all about summers from way back ."…Mr Punch and Judy man, time flows like the yellow sand., bring me back the childhood land of summers long ago…." And we were all singing along and then John told us all about…..Cleethorpes…Eee what a reet fine place! I've got to go there one day…apparently they have a Latin Quarter…and haddock and morris men…which all sounds disturbingly exotic to me.

And they sang 'The Banks of Green Willow' and I came over all 'traditional' again….Diane would have been proud of me! And there were songs about Sewage Works, which had us doubled up with giggles…you SO wouldn't believe where that man kept his sandwiches (!) and 'Fiddlers Green' and John was telling us all about how he wrote the song and how many things had been named after it…. Oh…..they were just wonderful….. "…just tell me old shipmates I'm taking a trip mates and I'll see you someday in Fiddlers Green…"

And then Kathryn Roberts and Sean Lakeman were on….all the way from Devon to Yorkshire….same as us, except for our slight diversion via the IOW. Poor things just managed to get on stage in time as they'd shut their keys in the car at the last moment….with all their instruments.still inside. Talk about a stressful way to start a gig, but they did us all proud and Kathryn has such a beautiful voice, rich and expressive…never seen them on their own before and you're really aware of what a great guitarist Sean is when there are just the two of them and of course Kathyrn's a Yorkshire Lass as well. Well…they sang us songs about Joe Peel and William Corder…(he wasn't a nice lad really was he, let's face it) and then 'Rosie Anne' came on and you suddenly realised that perhaps William was quite a splendid chap compared to Rosie's brother John! What is it with all these men? Ay up!.. I'll bet they weren't Yorkshire Men…and The Granite Mill really pounded along with Sean's playing….I'm so glad we got to see them at long last….altogether now…..they were reet….champion!

Cont....

Message 3 - posted by U1702831 (U1702831) , Sep 21, 2005

..Well…it was 11pm by now and I'm normally tucked up by this time, but 11pm at Otley Festival was just the beginning of the night….trust me….for at 11pm the Duncan McFarlane Band were introduced and the whole of Otley just lit up without having to use the National Grid!

Straight into The Twohey Step but this time…unlike at Sidmouth….the whole room knew what was going to happen after those first quiet initial bars and the cheers went up when the band exploded into their wild instrumental. And once again, we're all jigging around…I'm right next to a very nice Steward…(A Yorkshire Man!)…and we're bouncing around together…we ended up sharing my apple sweets, so friendly oop North!....Well….the room got hotter and hotter and the music got better and better and boy do they know how to WHOOP OOP there! Champion Whoopers in Yorkshire. Ay! And when Duncan and his band sang 'The Woodshed Boys' everyone knew the words….they were on home ground here and it showed, mind you….those tables should have been taken out…The DMcF Electric Band are like The Oysterband….No Tables Allowed…too much dancing to do…AND there were loads of young people in there too!

I don't know what to say about this band really. I mean they did 23 songs. TWENTY THREE songs! And all of them get you moving around, even if you don't mean to…there were people coming around from the wine bar, once they heard them playing and well…I keep telling you all about this band, but seeing them in Otley was the best thing we ever did! We've never driven so far to see a band before….my friend 'Steward' was most impressed.

Well, this time we got to hear them singing Richard Thompson's 'Misunderstood' and The Oysterband's 'Time Of Her Own'….and we rocked, sorry…folked….to the amazing 'Jigalo' and all the time people trying to get in through the 'No Entry' door, but Steward wasn't 'avin' any of it! So they just had to stay on the other side of the door and listen. A brilliant night….and to think it was all in a folk club!

Sunday in this lovely little Yorkshire town….where they have REAL shops! Individual shops….not just big names like we have down here. Their High Street looks SO different to some down here in The West Country…and everywhere you go people smile right into you…they don't just smile with their mouths, they use their eyes to smile in Otley.

In the Civic Hall a great craft fair going on…and a wonderful place to eat with cakes that you remembered as a child. Home made ones, coconut, raspberry, chocolate to die for….specially if you're diabetic like me…but I was OK because I had thoughts of John Tams to keep me going as everyone around me bit deep into their cakes. AND…Otley is the home of 'Brian Pickles Lawnmowers' made famous by Phil Beer and Deb Sandland who collapse into fits of giggles everytime they tell you about that shop sign at their gigs.

Cont....

Message 4 - posted by U1702831 (U1702831) , Sep 21, 2005

But before John Tams, there was another man that I'd so wanted to see…..his name was George Papavgeris….although some of you Mudcatters may know him as 'El Greko'…..I'd been over to his site before and had found there a modern day poet, a man of great insight and deep thoughtfulness and now…here he was, right in front of us on the stage. And George started right away with a song that literally enveloped us all called 'Friends Like These' …..and then he said "This is my first Northern Festival ever…and I was a bit surprised that in the distance of about 200 yards I collected about 3 'Hellos' and about 4 'How are you's? and I knew then that I was not in London."

You see? It's not just me…Otley is a Magical Place..Yorkshire is a Magical Place. All week-end it was like that, wherever you went, whoever you spoke to. We saw the people from our Fish and Chip meal about four times and each time it was like greeting old friends.

Anyway….back to George. He sang us songs about his father taking him to the fair as a child and you could reach out and touch the happiness that he felt. Then he told us that when his wife suggested he write a song of the sea, but a Greek sea song, he found that there weren't really any 'shanty' songs as such in Greece, but on doing a little research he found out about the Greek 'Sponge Divers'. About 1860 when diving suits were first invented it was a huge boom to the Sponge Divers as they could take their time walking around on the seabed, but what they didn't know was that they were at serious risk from 'the bends' and over the next 50 years half of the Greek Sponge Divers were either killed or seriously maimed from damage due to 'the bends' and the Standard Diving Tables of 1911 are based on the statistics of the Greek Divers. Then George's words came out….a desperate father's words as he begs his son not to go diving…..

"…You're best friend now walks on crutches and his brother cannot not speak and your cousin and my nephew, in the churchyard lies asleep …..and I want my son around me and grandchildren on my knee…Please .Johnny don't go walking with the fishes…jobs on shore are a plenty if you wish it, but this year don't go diving, leave the sponge just where it's meant to be. Johnny don't go walking in the sea……"

I could listen to George for hours and hours. His brand new song 'Any Town' deserves a thread entirely to itself, which I'll do later..Superb! His songs take you to so many places and teach you so much. His voice is strong yet gentle….go and see him and you will be astounded.

Cont..

Message 5 - posted by U1702831 (U1702831) , Sep 21, 2005

And then it was time for John Tams and Barry Coope…except this time I didn't know what was in store for me as I don't know their music very well…so I sat there and watched as Barry and John sat down, got comfy with us all….."How grand it is to be here" said John and then we were launched into 'Lay Me Low' which was actually their encore….(well time was precious, loads of acts to see and they wanted to make sure they had one!) and that was it…I was hooked, as Barry sang the words of an old Shaker prayer and John played the harmonica beautifully. It's their humour and gentleness again that contribute so much to their performance. And we had 'Amelia' from The Reckoning which as John explained is a rare sea song from …Switzerland! Go and see him and you'll hear how it came about. Well…he versed us in the chorus and you get the feeling that John enjoys us singing along with him as much as we enjoy the joining in..an absolutely gorgeous man!

And he waffles…he does…he darts from one subject to another and it's so entertaining, he keeps you right in the palm of his hand without seemingly even trying. 'Amelia' is a beautiful song and John's voice just seems to glide right around you and Barry's blends perfectly. Then he told us the story of his family, a mining family, as was Barry's and how he grew up with 11 pits around his village and he sighed as he says that there are probably less then 11 in the entire country now…and he went on to tell us the story behind 'Hearts Of Coal' which is about his Grandad, Harry Stone, who we were told, by the time he'd got to John's age had been dead 20 years. He's full of little throw away lines like that, which at first make you laugh, but later come back to you and bring the awfulness of the situation home. But it's also about the closing down of the mines and the loss of community that went with it. He wrote it whilst in Russia ….distance home etc.'crystallising' his mind….and the strike was going downhill.

My children sat there learning so much from him and they talked about the miners often on the way home…he's a natural teacher, a man who just draws you right in with his stories and his pictures and brings it all to life. Do you know…he said that everytime he buys a new guitar he knows that there is a song inside it…stuck in there somewhere, that he just has to bring out…isn't that lovely! And he talked and sang of friendships and relationships, of miners and wars…of homesickness and the physical pain it causes and he makes you laugh and wipe a tear away. Barry and John are just perfect together.

Cont.....

Message 6 - posted by U1702831 (U1702831) , Sep 21, 2005

And then he told us about a new Radio 2 programme coming out in March 2006, which follows in the footsteps of The Radio Ballads of Ewan MacColl and Charles Parker. A team of writers including amongst others, Karine Polwart, Richard Thompson, Kate Rusby and himself, and they are getting together to write new ballads based on interviewing people about their skills, trades and different problems. They cover HIV, the Irish troubles, shipbuilding, fox-hunting and the steel industry to name a few. John sang about 'cobbling' in the steel mills and my children learnt yet more…

And he told us a wonderful poem about war, as he couldn't bear to sing anything from Sharpe at the moment, with everything that was going on in the world right now….and he spoke of dreamers and how important they are at present….and you could feel the sorrow and the frustration coming out from him…..then finally we all sang 'Rolling Home' together…and as we sang more strongly….John and Barry just quietly got up and left the stage and the song to us…..then we got softer, softer…." Rolling home, when we go rolling home...."

…..and I knew I'd found two more performers who care deeply about others

And finally the Duncan McFarlane…Acoustic… Band this time…..upstairs in The Red Lion…in a room that was such a mixture….black ceiling to show off the chandeliers and the sparkling silver' ballroom' ball and around the walls were Andy Warhol prints of Marilyn Monroe in various colours….but it was what was going on inside the room that mattered. All over the settees and the chairs people were jam-packed, but relaxed and we had a gentler, slowed down version of the night before, far more intimate, but every bit as enjoyable…..and once again….the whole room knew all the words and we had such a sing-song, and the DMcF Band know how to draw everyone in, ….and well….it felt like one big family gathering.

When we sang 'The Mist Covered Mountains' well…that just about finished me off completely…it's a swaying song isn't it?...."Ho ro soon shall I see them, see them oh see them…ho ro soon shall I see them, the mist covered mountains of home……" and they sang it so gently…well we all did actually….but suddenly I didn't want to see the mist covered 'mountains' of Sidmouth anymore…..I was away in the 'mist covered 'mountains' of Yorkshire…and I didn't want to go home…..and sitting here now, typing this…and listening to the song again on the 'Acoustic'CD….I'm right back there in that funny little room filled with warmth……

"…..and they'll give me a welcome, the warmest on earth…so loving and kind, full of music and mirth, in the sweet sounding language of home….Ho ro….soon shall I see them….the mist covered mountains of …"….Otley….


So…what does Otley Folk Festival mean to me? Well, I guess it has to be..friendliness…..open arms…real smiles and a real welcome.

Ay up....it's cold oop North!

No…..it's warm, Welcoming And Warm……….Ho Ro…..

Champion!<<<<



Of course, NONE of the above are Folk...Ooh dear me, no...   ;0)


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 02:20 PM

whats tha blathering on about woman?
You should avoid strong beverages ,wrap up in a nice cardi and listen to
yer Jim Reeves records..
Ahm off t'pub.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 02:31 PM

"All music if folk music. I ain't never heard no horse sing a song."
Louis Armstrong

Interesting thread that looks at the same question differently.

Folk music is what you want it to be. I think it is very individual but I do tend to side with Mr Armstrong

mp


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 02:32 PM

Now folk music is old stuff .
Nobody knows who wrote it.
and it has been changed by its passage through the various orifices and digits of performers through the ages.

It may be more to your preference than other sorts of music,however that does not render the other music liable to be referred to as shite.

You see we all agree.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 02:59 PM

I think you may come to regret saying that,mauvepink.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:51 PM

Easy answer is stuff I don't like is Not Folk Music. I agree with Leena above, that if it's pretending to be pop or jazz, than it's not folk.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 05:01 PM

Will: This isn't folk either - but isn't it great?

Normally I loathe tap, and big bands don't do a lot for me either, but yes, that WAS great!!!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 06:45 PM

Now wait on, you guys are so helpful, but you are just confusing me and my mate and his dog. Well, the dog's always a bit confused, being a 3 year old lab pup (they never grow up, just older, like folkies).

Look, I say thru my tears, all we want is just 3 or 4 approved tunes we all agree on so we can learn them by listening to scratchy old 78s - LPs would be too modern, and so not Real Folk, the committee has ruled by Fiat - no Morris Drivers allowed! - and play them without the dots. 3 or 4 is enough, as we can't keep more than 3 or 4 tunes in our heads at once, especially after all that bier we have to force ourselves to quaff, in proper folkie style.

We've already voted to buy the tankards and funny hats and the little matching waistcoats and leather pantsfaded jeans (amended committee motion I missed - must have fallen asleep). We're planning to visit a local session, and when no one is looking, borrow a few random instruments we don't know how to play, just to get started.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:36 PM

I'm reasonably certain an avocado sandwich is NOT folk music.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:04 PM

I was right about the Autumn Leaves (see 12.04)!
But no finger-picking, just some very good jazz piano!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:20 PM

MauvePink, I humbly beg to differ on your source for that quote. It was not Louis Armstrong who made the "horses" remark. It was the Georgia/Chicago blues musician Big Bill Broonzy.
I don't know how the quote got attributed to Louis but it ain't right.

Old Vermin, an argument could be made that much of the Court music of the Antiqua derived from the music of the Trouveres (early wandering troubadours). Some of it may have been pretty close to a folk tradition although I take your point about it being highly specialized for royalty.

Autumn Leaves, music by Jacques Prevert, lyrics by Johnny Mercer.

An avocado sandwich might be folk music if devoured by a noisily chewing and famished
folk singer. :)


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:22 PM

Now I have been inspired to play the avocado sandwich - sounds a bit disgusting though ...


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:24 PM

Sadly, I've just remembered that 'Autumn Leaves' was one of the pieces I learnt by heart on the piano when little, so I could probably play it on the accordion without the dots ....


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 03:09 AM

This isn't Folk Music, but it might be appropriate for Conrad:

Arcade Fire - Keep The Car Running


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:12 AM

"Interesting thread that looks at the same question differently."

Same old answers though!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:30 AM

I can't make out if this is meant to be a serious thread or more as humerous banter.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: buddhuu
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:45 AM

Stringsinger: It was not Louis Armstrong who made the "horses" remark. It was the Georgia/Chicago blues musician Big Bill Broonzy.
I don't know how the quote got attributed to Louis but it ain't right.


A bit of research suggests that may have been both, although the remarks were phrased rather differenty. Broonzy's quip was in response to a question from Studs Terkel during a broadcast. The Armstrong version, which is the closest in form to that usually quoted by people, is attributed by Oxford Dictionary of Quotations to a 1971 edition of the New York Times.

If that's the case, then Mr A gets credit for the oft-quoted version, but Big Bill must get credit as the likely originator of the concept as he had been dead for some years by the time Louis piped up.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Slag
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:55 AM

My how this thread has grown since I last peeked into Mellow Manor to see how the inmates were getting along. I just brought Ferdinand along to demonstrate Bulls can be quite folksy when pursuing thoughts of flowers and such.

Have you never studied logic ft? You can't define via negativa, at least not in a definitive way. Too broad, a virtually endless category starting with AAA insurance, aardvarks and such and ending up somewhere near Zzyzyx mineral springs (with apologies to the late Curtis Springer).

Folk is a four letter word that begins with "F" and ends with a "K" but don't draw any hasty conclusions from that! Even if it feels good while you are doing it.

You'd be much farther along if you stipulated what "Folk" is in the world of music. Set up the parameters. Drive in the pikes of the pale. Declare "No Man's Land" and arm your warriors with kazoos. Take no prisoners. That way we shall all know what Folk music is as well as what it's not and there shall be great fear. Now ft, gather your army.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Hesk
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:30 AM

This is an amusing thread and most of the posts are in the same spirit.
Perhaps the funniest ones are those which have taken it seriously.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:48 AM

"Have you never studied logic ft? "

At High School and at University - pre-requisite subject for Computer Science! Logic table, Venn Diagrams, etc...


"You can't define via negative, at least not in a definitive way."

You missed the whole point - countless such threads have tried and failed! Some even got nasty!


"You'd be much farther along if you stipulated what "Folk" is in the world of music"

You think The Fooles Troupe would fool around with as touchy a subject as that? - if you want positive definitions, Joe Offer has kindly linked almost all of the previous threads that tried to define "F*** Music" in a positive way! read away - I did - and I got wiser than that!


So, According to the dictates of Sir Conan Doyle (author of Sherlock Holmes), "When you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, no matter how improbable, must be the answer!"


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:39 AM

"what IS NOT folk music?" - any piece of music with a legitimate copyright. As long as it's private property, it does not belong to the people - Tom


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:48 AM

@: Arthur_itus 'I can't make out if this is meant to be a serious thread or more as humerous banter.'

Both, sometimes simultaneously. Taken seriously with a light heart and a healthy dash of surrealism.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM

Curmudgeon - is your 'property' argument about copyright not somewhat legalistic?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:05 AM

QUOTE
"what IS NOT folk music?" - any piece of music with a legitimate copyright. As long as it's private property, it does not belong to the people - Tom
UNQUOTE

Hmmmm ...When you have eliminated the impossible...

Looks like we might have made a sensible start ....

.... and I bet you all thought I was joking, didn't you?

Now, moving on ....


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 11:19 AM

and going forward


with our backs to the wall


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 11:28 AM

Folk Rock?
Blue Suede Shoes


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 02:04 PM

Whichever of them, Broonzy or Satch, originated the 'horse' argument, it has become a bit of folklore in its own right. I agree with Bert Lloyd, however, who always described it as "a dreary axiom". Mauvepink, my dear, have you ever seen a horse in a black tutu perform 32 fouettés? No? Ah, then; so Swan Lake is a folk dance, is it?

Oh, come on...

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Genie
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:53 PM

Stringsinger [[ ...
6. Anything by Cole Porter, Jerome Kern, and George Gershwin and the old Broadway show writers. These tunes could never have been written communally in aural tradition.]]

Beg to differ - slightly. I think Gershwin's "Summertime" tune could have been conjured up in aural tradition (is it any more complex than "Greensleeves?"). And I think Jerry Bock did a great job of making such tunes as "L'Chaim!" and "Sunrise, Sunset" sound like they evolved in aural tradition.   Composers often borrow and bend tunes from folk or write tunes with similar chord progressions.    But when a full orchestra plays "Greensleeves" it ceases to be "folk," I'd say.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:57 PM

...especially after all that bier we have to force ourselves to quaff, in proper folkie style.

Please; no cross references to other threads. It's just not on don't you know.

By 'eck, doesn't our Lizzie go on a bit?


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:01 PM

"But when a full orchestra plays "Greensleeves" it ceases to be "folk," I'd say. "

Now the committee is arguing amongst itself - perhaps we should cut back on the amount of 'bier' we compulsory consume to liberate our muse-hic! At least then the discussions might be more friendly and perhaps even coherent.... the dog's buggered off for the moment - think he can smell a lady friend down the road, must be what all that dogfighting noise is outside ...


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:02 PM

"no cross references to other threads"

Oi! Who died and made YOU chairman of MY committee?!!!!!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:05 PM

this is not folk music
http://www.dickmiles.com
but this is http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=oSgmfxQrwJ4

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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:21 PM

Sorry, that dogfight outside was a bunch of drunken bearded tankard waving funny hat & waistcoat wearing folkies (not OUR type really!) wanting to get into to our meeting, but when asked "OK. What is Folk Music" ....

The dog was just sitting there with a big grin, tongue and tail wagging, loving it all....


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Slag
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 02:54 AM

Sir, would that be the same Conan Doyle who wrote"...mediocrity recognizes nothing but itself. Talent instantly recognizes genius!"? You may, indeed, be on to something!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:03 AM

I tell you what's brought a big smile to my face, the fRoots and Mumford & Sons 'fiasco'.

Now, only a short while back they were all apoplectic about Mumford & Sons being labelled 'folk'....Steam was coming out of their ears left right and centre, snidey comments about their musical skills and knowledge abounded...and they were most definitely being shouted down as NOT FOLK!! with those exclamation marks flying through the air.

But then....the band did a Radio 1 'live' gig..where they 'chose' the venue to be.....wait for it....CECIL SHARP HOUSE.

Well!! Stone the crows, eh!! Who'd a thought it! LOL

So now, Mumford & Sons ARE FOLK and they're the new heroes for bringing Cecil Sharply House MORE publicity with their one gig than that place has had for years! (Great move, lads!) The audience were described, patronisingly I thought, as being 'fairly intelligent'....Gosh, who'd a thought that either, a 'fairly intelligent' bunch of people who follow such a band...Wow, wonders will never cease eh?   ;0)

Anyways ups, here's Ian's report on the gig, taken from the fRoots board, which I'm sure is quiet at present because all its posters are out busily tracking down their 'We LOVE Mumford & Sons!' T shirts and associated paraphanelia...

>>>Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:38 am    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well . . . first of all I had a 20 minute natter with Andy Parfitt, head of Radio 1, who seemed genuinely interested in what was going on and the building in which it was taking place. The sight of a full Radio 1 stage rig, lighting, branding etc in the Kennedy Hall was pretty impressive too.

I found it all pretty hard to fault (not that I should have been trying to). It was for and played to an audience who have a completely different set of references and almost certainly none of mine, which probably applies to presenting DJ Zane Lowe too. However, you couldn't dispute his real enthusiasm for what he was fronting, and Cecil Sharp House probably got more appreciative plugs in the 3 hours of this show then it's had in the entire lifetime of Radio 1. You could say it was worth it for that alone.

So: from here it's down to personal tastes which aren't really relevant. I found Laura Marling perfectly acceptable but indistinguishable from loads of other current singer/ songwriters over the past two or three decades. Decent voice, average playing, not much stage presence, hard to figure out why her among all the others but may her good luck continue. Bombay Bicycle Club were much the same too, though they did have a reasonably engagingly nerdy/cute front man. Nothing to either dislike or inspire, really.

By this time I was beginning to realise that the general vibe of all this scene is fairly retro: no barriers are being pushed at, no horses being frightened - oddly, there's a lot more of an interesting innovative edge among current performers of traditionally based music and its connected circles. Sorry to mention Emily Portman and Ruth Theodore again in this thread, but I found myself thinking that tonight's audience would probably consider what they do extremely weird and left field by comparison.

Couldn't work out what the Maccabees were doing there. An OK mainstream indie rock band. None of the boxes ticked at all that make lazy mainstream hacks say "folk" (no acoustic instruments, banjos, accordeons, just 3 electric guitars, bass, drums and some shoegazing).

I warmed to the Mumfords, and not just because it was made clear they'd chosen CSH and were proud to be there. Their songs aren't that notable on first live encounter but their audience knew them off by heart. They delivered it well, with that strong confidence that bands often have by the time they've graduated to owning guitar techies. They seemed likeable blokes, harmonised well in that US soft rock/West Coasty way, and generally came across more like a UK pub scene band from the Burritos era than the 25-years-on Boothill Foot Tappers which I'd anticipated - and none the worse for that. They did do one genuinely thrilling number with brass section, cello and the keyboard player switched to accordeon, where they actually began to sound English in a slightly Home Service/ Tams-y way.

The encore of Dolly's Jolene with Ms Marling on vocal duties seemed oddly serious and non-ironic . . .

As a PS, their fans seemed a decent, fairly educated bunch: from conversations overheard I can quite easily imagine some of them picking up on the tangents that may lead in our direction.

No harm done then!"<<<<<<



Taken from here..

I'm not sure what is NOT folk, as the title asks, but I know that 'what is NOT good manners' is to look down on bands and their audiences as being kinda halfwits, who really wouldn't understand certain traditional singers if they fell over them. And for me, it's that patronising, pseudo-intellectual, looking down their noses, aren't we sooooo clever! attitude that has really put me off so much traditional folk music and some of the very musicians who perform it.

Great shame.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:08 AM

"Mumford & Sons ARE FOLK"

.... but they write their own stuff? So that'll be copyright then? Damn....

Wait on, do they get paid? Do they give away their CDs for free?

Aggghhhhh....


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Nanny Ogg
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:17 AM

It's only a folk song.


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Esme WeatherwaxI
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:21 AM

I knows all about folk songs. Hah! You think your'e listenin to a nice song about... about cuckoos and fiddlers and nightingales and whatnot, and then it turns out to be about .... about something else entirely. You can't trust folk songs. They always sneak up on you!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:35 AM

Conan Doyle who wrote"...mediocrity recognizes nothing but itself. Talent instantly recognizes genius!"? You may, indeed, be on to something!

No one knows what else the great man had to say because just at that moment a fairy flew in the window and with a girlish giggle he was off on another adventure....


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:00 AM

That made me chuckle, Tim.. :0) x


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 08:24 AM

What's with all these "witchy" guests suddenly posting, then? We only need Magrat Garlick to post and we have 3 of a kind!


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Subject: RE: No, really -- what IS NOT folk music?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 08:35 AM

My contention is that Folk is not so much a matter of Contehnt but Context - thus whilst all music isn't necessarily Folk Music, all music can be Folk Music.


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