Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)

Subject: Lyrics to The Flandyke Shore?
From:
Date: 10 Oct 97 - 08:05 PM

I have most of the lyrics,but would like to find out more about this song in general.It was recorded by Nic Jones on his album Penguin Eggs,but thats all i know. many thanks,Keith from Reuben's Train.

Subject: Flandyke Shore
From: Graham
Date: 31 Aug 99 - 11:44 AM

Can anyone offer any information on the origins of Nic Jones' Flandyke Shore. It's a strange incomplete version - any ideas??

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: GeorgeH
Date: 31 Aug 99 - 12:23 PM

Not much help, but I think I have a tape of a broadcast of him singing it where he says, more or less, that it's a strange, incomplete song . . .

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: bigJ
Date: 31 Aug 99 - 03:30 PM

According to H.E.D. Hammond's notes in the Journal of the Folk Song Society (No 11- 1907 pp130-131), it was collected from Mrs Notley of Moreton in December 1906.
He writes - 'Mrs Notley had the song from a very old woman of Moreton, a famous local singer. The story of the song, she said, was that of a young man called to the wars in Flanders, went to pay a farewell visit to his love, whose father locked her in her chamber, thus frustrating the endevour. The title Flandyke Shore which Mrs Notley gave, is doubtless a corruption of 'Flanders Shore.'
To Hammond's note, Cecil Sharp has added:-
'I have a close variant of this ballad. The tune, which I noted down from an old lady in Somerton, is substantially the same as Mrs. Notley's, except that it is in 3/2 time throughout, and is in the Mixolydian mode. My version consists of four verses, the last two of which are more or less the same as the Dorset verses. The first two are as follows :-

When I was young and a courting did go
I loved a fair maid as my life,
From four in the morning till nine at night
I never would gain my heart's delight.

When her father came to hear
That I did court his daughter dear
He locked her up in a room so high
That was the beginning of all my misery.

As you say, the song as Nic sang it, is incomplete, so when the song appeared on the Albion Band's 'Acousticity' CD, it had a note by Ashley Hutchings:

'The much-loved Nic Jones found the traditional "Flandyke Shore" some years ago, about the same time as I discovered the song. He recorded it, I didn't. Recently, while driving through the Canadian Rockies in our touring van Chris (While) spontaneously started to sing the song which renewed our interest in, and love of the piece. She and I decided to give "Flandyke" a happy ending and by the time we had reached the United States border the task was completed.'

This is it:

So I hove a dart that touch-ed my true love's heart
Touch-ed my true love's heart
And brought the light into her eyes again.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FLANDYKE SHORE
From: GUEST,Meister Blowmore
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:44 PM

I found them....

enjoy
-blowmore

THE FLANDYKE SHORE

I went unto my love's chamber window
Where I often I had been before
Just to let her know unto Flandyke Shore
Unto Flandyke Shore
Never to return to England no more
Never to return to England no more

I went unto my love's chamber door
Where I'd never had been before
There I saw a light springing from her clothes
Springing from her clothes
Just as the morning sun when first arose
Just as the morning sun when first arose

As I was walking on the Flandyke Shore
Her own dear father I did meet
"My daughter, she is dead", he cried
"She is dead", he cried
"And she's broken her heart all for the love of thee"
So I hoved a bullet onto fair England's shore
Onto fair England's shore
Just where I thought that my own true love did lay

---
Traditional
from Nic Jones on "Penguin Eggs"

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 03:16 PM

That's a kind thought, Blowmore, but Jones' text was posted here just over a year ago, in another thread (later than this one):  Flandyke Shore - meaning?.  There doesn't seem to be much to add to BigJ's comments, really.

Malcolm

Subject: Lyr Add: PLOUGHMAN'S LOVE TO THE FARMER'S DAUGHTER
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 09:04 PM

Time to re-visit this old thread with further information.

Emily Lyle (Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs, Scottish Text Society 1996) prints a Scottish version, The Flanders Shore, noted by Crawfurd from Mrs Cunningham of Newton Ayr in January 1827 (text only). Lyle comments (vol.2 xxiii-xxiv):

"The Flanders Shore... is a modernisation of an earlier song. The related story which appears on a blackletter broadside in the Pepys Collection with the title The Unnatural Mother: or, The two Loyal Lovers Fatal Overthrow apparently dates from the time of the war with Flanders in 1693. This broadside had been published in facsimile in Catalogue of the Pepys Library at Magdalene College, Cambridge: The Pepys Ballads ed. W. G. Day (Cambridge 1987) 4.72. A later chapbook form called The Ploughman's Love to the Farmer's Daughter, to which the oral version is closer, is printed here in the Appendix (No. 1)."

Here is the chapbook text quoted.


THE PLOUGHMAN'S LOVE TO THE FARMER'S DAUGHTER

(Chapbook text. Printed J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow, 1802.)

When first a-courting I did go,
I lov'd a fair maid as my life,
I often told her I did her love, I did her love,
but I never could gain her for my wife.

I serv'd her father winters seven,
from rising sun till nine at night,
Duly and truly as my life, as my life,
but I ne'er could gain my heart's delight.

I told her father secretly,
his daughter I did highly prize,
He lock'd her up in a room so high, in a room so high,
then first began my miseries.

I went to my love's chamber door,
where oft-times I had been before,
For to let her know and understand, and understand,
I was going to some foreign shore.

On shipboard I then went straightway,
and sailed for fair Flander's shore;
I little thought what should me befal, what should me befal,
that I ne'er should see my love more.

When to fair Flanders I did come,
No rest nor comfort could I find,
Tho' I did stand with glass in hand, glass in hand,
still my true love ran in my mind.

I took a pistol in my hand,
and charged it couragiously,
I shot a bullet into fair England, into fair England,
where I thought my true love might be.

When to fair England I return'd,
I met her father in the street,
My daughter is dead, said he, dead, said he,
all for the sake of loving thee.

I went to my love's chamber door,
where oft-times I had been before,
There sprung a light from my love's clothes,
just like the morning sun when rose.

All young men who a courting go,
who never made the bells to ring,
Go no more into shady groves, into shady groves,
for to hear the sweet nightingale sing.


The Robinson Library, University of Newcastle. Chapbooks, vol. 12, no. 30: The Kentish Tragedy; or the Constant Lovers Overthrow. To which are added, The Hogg's Tub. The Ploughman's Love to the Farmer's Daughter. The Shepherdess Lamenting her Drowned Lover. Glasgow. Printed by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket 1802. Pp. 6-7.


I'd say this answers the questions we've sometimes had here as to the meaning of the fragment found by Hammond and recorded by Nic Jones (with a little thought it can be sung to the same tune, too). It also makes the Hutchings-While "happy ending" look even more fatuous than it did already. When I get a look at the Pepys facsimile I'll add any further details that seem useful, but that may not be soon.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: nutty
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 09:58 AM

This site might help to explain the song

Trad Arranged Jones

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 05:44 PM

I must agree with the notes from the site nutty kindly pointed us to. The Nic Jones version has a mysterious quality which the full version (excellent as it is), lacks. A wonderful example of the folk process I think.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 08:12 PM

Mrs Notley's fragment has a dreamlike quality, in that it has retained the imagery and lost the plot. The "mystery" derives from that, not from any quality inherent in the song. I have no opinion as to whether that is a good or a bad thing; that is a subjective judgement that people will make for themselves. Now, at least, they can make an informed judgement rather than one based on pure speculation.

Harding's sleeve notes don't really add much to "Big J"'s earlier comments, I think; and some of what he says is wrong. He states "The melody was collected by the great folk scholar Cecil Sharp from Mrs.Notley at Moreton in 1906". It wasn't. The collectors were the Hammond brothers. Sharp did comment in the Journal of the Folk Song Society that he had noted a similar variant, but that was from somebody else (Mrs Betsy Pike of Somerton, as it happens) and was not published.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 07:55 PM

Fascinating- will have to work on this one.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: Trevor
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 05:22 AM

I've been (trying!) to sing this for some years. I love it, and the 'dreamlike' quality but it has never 'felt' complete, or quite long enough (probably because I can't do much in the way of twiddly guitar bits in the middle). I'm certainly going to have a look and see if I can incorporate any of the verses posted by Malcolm, without losing any of the feeling.

Thanks.

Subject: Lyr Add: UNNATURAL MOTHER / TWO LOYAL LOVERS' ...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 01:03 PM

A recent post to another thread on this song reminded me that I now have the broadside text from which the chapbook text I quoted earlier presumably derived. It is transcribed from the facsimile image in W. G. Day (ed), Catalogue of the Pepys Library at Magdalene College, Cambridge: The Pepys Ballads, Cambridge 1987, Vol 4, 72. The sheet is undated, but the combination of publishers' names would indicate that it was printed somewhere between 1683 and 1696.


The Unnatural Mother: or, The Two Loyal Lovers' Fatal Overthrow.

The Mother she would not agree,
he could her Daughter have;
So they did part, she broke her heart,
her Portion was the Grave.

Licensed according to Order.

To an Excellent New Tune.


When first of all I began for to Wooe,
I loved a Bonny Lass as my Life,
And every day I did kindness show,
yet ne'er could obtain her to be my Wife.

I served her Father for seven long years,
I served her Father right faithfully,
From morning till noon and from noon till night
and all to enjoy her good company.

My service and labour I counted as play,
for had it been twenty long years and more,
I'd think it as short as a Winter's day,
enjoying my love whom I did adore

To her I did often reveal my Love,
she gave me her hand, with her heart and all,
And proved as true as the tender Dove,
I cannot complain of my Love at all.

As soon as her Parents did understand
that I to their Daughter did bear good will,
They studied to ruine us out of hand,
and this is the cause of my sorrow still.

I talk'd with her Mother right secretly,
but I had no sooner declar'd my mind,
But she lock'd her up in a Chamber high,
and made her a Prisoner close confin'd.

Then under her Window with Musick sweet,
and many sweet Sonnets I'd serenade;
There I with my amorous Love did meet,
until at the length we were both b[e]tray'd.

For when her own Mother at length did hear,
that under her Window I often came,
She Tyrant-like was the more severe,
no Mother was ever so much to blame.

Her innocent Daughter she took straightway,
and bound her with Chains in a Dungeon deep;
Not suffereing her to behold the day,
but there she in sorrow did sigh and weep.

Her Mother afforded her no relief,
but let her in showers of Tears lament,
My heart it was ready to break with Grief,
to think of the Torments she underwent.

I being surrounded with Grief and Woe,
to think of my true Love's misery;
A Soldier to Flanders I streight did go,
I valu'd not what would become of me.

And while in brave Flanders I did remain,
and youthful young Lasses appeared in view;
The thoughts of my Love did increase my pain,
and likewise my sorrow and grief renew.

Then I took my Musket all in my hand,
and cock'd and prim'd it immediately,
And shot a Bullet towards fair England,
the place where my Heart and my Love did lye.

Soon after I crossed the Ocean main,
unto the fair Banks of the English Shore,
In order to see my true Love again,
for whom I had many Months grieved sore.

My Heart was Streightways as heavy as Lead,
as soon as her cFather and Mother I see,
Who told me their Daughter dear, she was dead,
who broke her Heart for the Love of me.

Oh then I was almost in despair,
there Tydings did streightways my Soul surprize
I beat my Breast and tore my Hair,
while Tears they did trickle down from my Eyes.

My sorrowful ruine do's now appear,
unnatural Parents, I well may say
For why, you have Murder'd your Darling [...]
which might have liv'd many a happy day.

My Pillow with sorrowful Tears I soak,
without her I can never happy be;
Farewel to the World, now my Heart is broke,
my Dear, I'll lye down in the Grave with thee.


Printed for P. Brooksby, J. Deacon, J. Blare, and J. Back.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: GUEST,Neil O Connell
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 12:49 PM

Is Nic's tab available anywhere for ths?

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:17 PM

That I can't answer; but since the thread has been revived I may as well add that the broadside I quoted earlier can now be seen online at  http://emc.english.ucsb.edu/ballad_project/:

4.72 The Unnatural Mother:/ OR,/ The two Loyal Lovers Fatal Overthrow

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 06:19 AM

Here's a version done at Otley FF last year:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AiujitjEd4U

Don't think the group do it much justice [imo]

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:19 AM

Can anyone provide Hammond's transcription of the text and tune. I don't like to step on copyrights, and who knows what liberties Nic (and hence everyone after him) has taken. In particular, I suspect the repetition of the final line of each verse, to a different strain, was Nic's invention--it's missing in the Albion Band sound clips I found.

I also note that in a later recording, Nic switched to "Flanders Shore", probably after the earlier broadsides were brought to his attention.

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:37 AM

AC - you can see Hammond's transcription of Mrs. Notley's Flanders' Shore at the EFDSS Take Six site (search). If you type D743 and search on Alternate reference number in the drop down you'll get the entry (click the black triangle on the left to open the full entry; click the ms images to open the browser).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:29 AM

I've always loved Nic's version of this song. As other people have said, it's dreamlike, probably partly because of the missing bits. I believe he performed it at the Enterprise in Chalk Farm one Sunday evening around 1976, happy days.   

For years I convinced myself that "bullet" in the song means "letter" i.e. a cut down version of "bulletin". But of course the earlier variant in Pepys' collection explicitly states that he cocks his musket and fires the bullet!

Perfect example of a folkie drawing conclusions from inadequate evidence, methinks. Not that THAT's unusual......

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Tim Chesterton
Date: 12 Sep 10 - 09:40 PM

Malcolm, I just want to say that all the links you give to original broadsides and notebooks and tunes to this song are hugely interesting and extremely helpful - thank you!

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Tim Chesterton
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 12:53 AM

With regard to AC's comments above, I've checked out the tune Hammond noted down, and it does seem to include the repetition of the last line as per Nic Jones' version. However, I think the broadside in the Pepys collection would be very difficult to sing to this tune. Would anyone know anything about possible tunes for that broadside? (It says it's to 'an excellent new tune'!).

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Ralphie
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 01:13 AM

Tim.
I have never seen a tune for the Pepys version, but, why not write a new one! After all that is what Nic did on many an occasion (Billy, Miles Wetherhill etc) And he didn't do too badly out of it!!

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: pavane
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:36 AM

The late BruceO collected all the old tunes he could find - his archive is here at Mudcat. That would probably be the first place to look.

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 04:45 AM

Even if you were able to turn up a tune from around Pepys' time, you would likely be disappointed in its "excellence". If you treat the "Flanders Shore" tune freely, as indeed you must for the current text, it's really not difficult to retrofit it to "The Unnatural Mother".

Hammond recorded that Mrs. Notley said, "The father locked her in a room so high"; this line occurs verbatim in "The Ploughman's Love." While Notley's version shows signs of previous folk revision and condensation (such as the relocation of the meeting to Flanders), her comment suggests to me that she had once known (but forgot) more of the song, and the confused chronology probably resulted from her singing the verses in whatever order they occurred to her. A memory lapse would also explain why the last verse is partial and misordered.

To me, this song demonstrates the misplaced reverence we place in traditional singers as sources and in the "wisdom" of the folk process. Modern singers continue to parrot this overcondensed mishmash simply because Notley happened to sing it to Hammond this way, and Jones (likely lacking access to other versions at the time) followed suit.

Being a bit more rational, I reconstructed a six-verse version of "Flanders Shore" which straightens out the chronology and provides a quick forestory modeled after "The Ploughman's Love". It does not attempt to explain the sense in firing the bullet nor the cause of the light springing from her clothes (given her state of decay by this time, I'm guessing spontaneous combustion). Even "The Ploughman's Love" doesn't adequately explain these points, and adds the ghoulish touch of the young man firing the bullet to where she lay while she was still alive! Of course, given the armaments of the time, it would have been a supernatural bullet indeed which could traverse the channel, much less hit a seagull accurately at fifty paces.

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Tim Chesterton
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 11:23 AM

Thanks, AC, and I'd love to see your verses if you're willing. I've been working on something similar using the chapbook text as a basis, and had even considered omitting the 'firing a bullet' verse because it really doesn't add anything to the story to me (and when my son first heard me sing it, his initial response was 'So he's supposed to have accidentally killed her, or what?').

I'm sure you're right about the broadside being singable to the Notley tune. I'm just not sure, reading the verses (basically in 8888 metre I think, and way more regular than the Notley version) whether that would have been the most natural tune to sing them to.

We can only speculate, of course!

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Anne Lister
Date: 13 Sep 10 - 03:36 PM

I've always thought the bullet makes total emotional sense, either where Nic has it or where it is in the broadside version, with the young man showing his feelings of utter frustration and thwarted passion in the only way he can. In the same way some people (myself from time to time) have been known to throw rocks into the sea.

It's one of my favourite songs of all time.

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Jun 13 - 01:22 PM

Jack Crawford has recorded The Ploughman's Love (almost exactly as the 1802 chapbook text posted by the late, lamented, Malcolm Douglas on 24 Aug 03 09:04 PM, but omitting the last verse) on his 2010 CD Pride of the Season on the Wildgoose label.

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 07:44 AM

Rather belatedly, here's my reworking:


The Flanders Shore
traditional; as modified by Robert Wahl

1. I served a squire for winters seven;
His daughter I prized as my life.
I told her duly and truly of my love, truly of my love
But she never gave her consent to be my wife. (2x; similarly below)

2. So I told her father secretly,
His daughter's hand I did seek,
He locked her up in a room so high, in a room so high;
It was the start of all my misery.

3. I went under my love's chamber window,
Where I often had been before,
'Twas to let her know unto Flanders Shore, unto Flanders Shore,
Never to return to England no more.

4. As I was a-walking on Flanders shore,
Her own dear father did I meet,
"My daughter dear she is dead," he cried; "She is dead," he cried,
"She has broke her heart all for the loss of thee."

5. Taking a pistol into my hand,
I hove a bullet on fair England, on fair England,
Just where I thought my own true love lay.

6. I went unto my love's chamber door,
Where I never had been before.
I saw a light spring from her clothes, spring from her clothes,
Just as the morning sun when first arose.


Phrases of the first two verses I took from "The Ploughman's Love", with liberal use of creative grout to form a condensed backstory. I also "restored" the first line of the fifth verse (modified from the original), but left it as a three-line verse since I think it works better dramatically to have a little musical jump here and avoid further verbal padding. The sixth verse was moved from its earlier position in the Notley version. The only other modification I can recall is changing "love" in the fourth verse to "loss", as originally.

I debated adding a verse to explain that the father had arranged for the young lover to be pressed into service, but thought this would drag out the song. Anyone familiar with such songs can infer this nicety.

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:10 PM

That's lovely, AC- tells the story concisely.

What did you do with the tune? And have you recorded it?

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 06:14 PM

I sing it without accompaniment, to the tune notated by Hammond (similarly to how Nic Jones did, but more freely)—notation at the EFDSS site. I haven't made a recording.

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 10:15 PM

thanks to everyone who posted on this thread - another gem of Mudcat scholarship

sandra

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: sleepyjon
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 02:07 PM

Wow!!!

I heard Jack Crawford at the Whittlebury Song and Ale a few years back, so I have the disc referred to by Snuffy five posts back (19 June 2013) on which the tune to the Ploughboy's Love is to my ear pretty close to Nic Jones's tune for the Flandyke Shore, so I thought I'd follow the link posted by Mick Pearce on 14th Nov 2009 to check out the source. This link now re-directs to the Full English project, and the same search parameters took me directly to the actual manuscript!

What a resource! I expect to spend many happy hours browsing in it!

SJ

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: GUEST,Tom Malone
Date: 09 Jul 14 - 10:57 AM

I had read these postings but not all the way through and had therefore not seen the Artful Codger's reworking of the Nic jones mysterious classic. I too felt that a little more plot was essential and had therefore drafted a reworked version myself that kept as much of the Jones' as well as the older version without making it too long (one of the pleasures of the Jones' version is its brevity). Here it is, for what it's worth. It should fit Jones' tune.

A Ploughman's Love for the Farmer's Daughter (Flandyke Shore)

For seven years I drove a plough,
From rising sun till late at night
My farmer's daughter I did love, she was my heart's delight, she was my heart's delight
But the farmer he hid her away from my sight
He swore that she would never be my wife

When I came unto my true love's chamber window
Where I'd oft times been before
Just to let her know unto some foreign shore, unto some foreign shore
Never to return to England no more
Ne'er to return to fair England no more

When I walked on the Flandyke shore
I took a pistol in my hand
I shot a bullet high unto fair England, unto fair England
Just to where I thought that my true love did stand
Just where I thought that my true love did stand

When to fair England I returned
Her own dear father I did meet
My daughter she is dead he cried, she is dead he cried
She has broken her heart all for the love of thee
She has broken her heart all for the love of thee

I went unto my true love's chamber door
Where I'd never been before
There I saw the light springing from her clothes, springing from her clothes
Just as the morning sun when first arose
Just as the morning sun when first arose.

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Jul 14 - 08:59 AM

Flandyke Shore is featured in the Nic Jones Tv documentary ( A must see!).
Ashley Hutchings mentions that he also ( along with Nic) " discovered" the song in a journal of the English Folk Society. Ashley described it as a "fragment" and said that it had three verses.
Blair Dunlop - and Ashley - do a lovely version of the song in the Tv show.

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 18 - 01:02 AM

postscript regarding the Flandyke/Flanders Shore discussion. Here is one out of left field. What if Flandyke is a garble of Zanddijk. In the 17th c. Zaandijk in Flanders had hundreds of windmills, used for milling lumber from Scandinavia for shipbuilding. Peter the Great stayed in Zanddijk while studying shipbuilding, per Wiki.


map of Zanddijk