Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?

Subject: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST,Lynn
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 01:16 PM

This is sort of a spin off from the Guild thread I started for a friend, and all of the responses from that thread have been appreciated and were most informative.

In the process of acquiring this 1978 Guild G212NT, which my friend did, it struck me about the ethics of buying a vintage or rare instrument when the seller doesn't appreciate the value of an instrument, or, is hard up for cash.

She did buy the Guild, and knowing its current true market value, which we found out both through a combination of the comments here, as well as talking to a few knowledgable stores, is in the neighborhood of $ 950.00 - $1,000.00 (U.S.), she initially offered the seller $300.00 just to test the waters (and with a very good poker face), and he came back with a counter offer of $335.00 at which point she couldn't get the money out of her purse fast enough, and then leave.
Yes, it's a great deal and as far as I am concerned she practically stole the instrument. But the seller got what he wanted.

Should one feel guilty or that they are taking advantage of the situation, when something like this comes along?

Or should one simply be pleased that they found a rare deal and were fortunate enough to be able to act on it?

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 01:23 PM

Are you asking what's the proper thing to do or the proper way to feel about having done it?

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST,Lynn
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 01:28 PM

A little of both I suppose, Guest.

But the more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards the idea that if the seller is perfectly happy with what they got for an instrument, then the buyer should have a guilt-free conscience and consider themselves truly fortunate.

I am still interested in knowing what others think and perhaps their own stories about gems acquired for a song.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: sledge
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 01:31 PM

Be happy with a bargain, you might get screwed over next time.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 01:35 PM

Lynn? Gee, I thought it was Lyn on the other thread. My memory just stinks I guess.........

Anyway.......I stole a D-28 off a college kid who was broke. It was a piece of trash. I sold it for a lot more than I paid, but it was still a bargain.....if you wanted a bad D-28. No moral........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 02:07 PM

The main question is, does it belong to the person selling it? Because they don't always, and that's one reason for bargain offers.

After that I suppose it's a question of "Is this fair?" - I mean you can make up O.Henry type stories where you'd have to be a real bastard to take advantage. This tattered and battered musician dies, his wife and kids in desperate straits, she's got no idea what his hallowed Gibson is worth and so on and so forth.

And if it was O Henry, the next twist of the story would be one it'd be wrong not to take advantage. Some unscrupulous bastard has bought the hallowed Gibson for a fraction of what he thinks its worth - but he's no idea of what it's worth either, so you give him what he thinks is a fair price, which is a fraction of its real value. I think it'd be immoral in such a case to enlighten him until after he'd parted company with it.

Situation ethics they call it, I think. Horses for courses.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Sourdough
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 02:12 PM

You can always keep the instrument and show your gratitude for your good fortune by donating time or money somewhere youmight not otherwise have done so. You get your "good deal" and the world is a little better place.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 02:14 PM

Nobody stole it, the seller set the price. If he didnt know what it was worth, he should have. Let's not infantalize the guy.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: NH Dave
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 02:15 PM

Years ago, I saw three banjos in an antique shop, for $20 the lot. I wheedled the cash from my folks and bought them. I had no qualms at the time because I figured that the shop had SOME idea of the value of things - sadly not the case when instruments are concerned, and it was all I could have gotten at the time. I also had some idea of the presumption of a teen ager advising an adult on the value of something he was selling. I later sold one to Sandy Bull, traaded another for a 120 bass accordion, and still have the third.

Besides, value is a relative thing. I've loaned a insulated vest remembering the times I would have killed for one. I still pick up hitch hikers, remembering my times on the road, and still donate blood, remembering as I do when I'd donate for the coffee and sandwiches after. Dave

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: dwditty
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 02:20 PM

In my book, caveat emptor goes for the seller, too. I just don't the latin word for seller.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST,Lynn
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 03:02 PM

(Catspaw, I spell it both ways depending on my mood.)


Well we know for sure the instrument was not stolen or "hot" or grey for that matter.

It's just that in today's vintage and late model market once just doesn't expect to come across real, legitimate bargains.

Generally things are bordering on overpriced to really overpriced, so this deal sort of stunned the both of us.

We honestly thought it was too good to be true and were skeptical as well (because of the saying if something seems too good to be true it probably is), but it was very much a legitimate thing, and, the owner needed the money, and he wasn't playing the instrument much anyway. (Pity as it's quite fine!)

Since my friend does volunteer work from time to time at retirement homes, I think her "karma" would be well served to seranade some of the residents with offerings from her newly acquired Guild. Thanks for the advice on that one Sourdough.

Still, when was the last time any of you came across a really amazing bargain on a desirable instrument?

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Toad
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 03:26 PM

I bought a Korg CX3 for fifty bucks. It was a buddy I bought it from and he didn't really need the money and his wife had bought a new Hamond and didn't use the Korg any more.

So, I grabbed it for my studio (I don't really play keyboards). And then he said that he also had a Krumar string synth for another fifty.

I know these synths where underpriced but my buddy really wanted to get rid of them cause they where taking up room and he had been sold on the idea that they were worthless because they were old anologe boards and didn't have any midi capabilities. But they are so cool.

Toad

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 03:58 PM

A few years ago (1997 or 89) I bought the guitar here for £10 in a charity shop. Mind, it was in a bit of a state, and needed rescuing. (It's an Angelica copy of a Harmony, made in Japan sometime in the early sixties I think.)

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: oggie
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 04:01 PM

If someone offers an instrument for sale, you offer a price and they accept I see no problem. They presumably are happy and so are you. BUT if they have asked you for advice or approached you for information and you have misled them as to its value, rarity etc then that is a different issue. Likewise if you have reason to believe that an instrument is stolen then that is also a different issue (Thank you to the person who realised that my recently rennovated anglo-concertina should not be going at auction for $100).

Dealers on the other hand are (almost) always fair game!

All the best

Steve (oggie)

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: rangeroger
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 06:54 PM

I paid $49 for the Gibson LG3 I talked about on the Gibson and instrument mistreatment threads.
rr

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 07:06 PM

If I knew somebody who genuinely didn't know what they were selling and I knew its true value, I could not take advantage and I am afraid I take a very dim view of those that do.

Jon

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 07:06 PM

I bought my donated one-owner 1916 Gibson mandolin at a church fundraiser for $75. The person running the sale had set the price. After taking it to a jam and discovering its true value, I went back (without the mando!)to the neighbor who had set the price and told her. She shrugged. She said she hadn't known and that was the breaks, she said. And, she said, they were glad for the $75.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Willie-O
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 09:17 PM

I feel like I have let some instruments go really cheaply compared to what I could have got for them, because having owned them for awhile I was more conscious of the flaws than how rare and desirable they were. Most recently my 1970 Tele Thinline. (Don't ask the price, I'm still mad at myself. But I needed the four hundred bucks...and I got it damn quickly. Could have had five just as quickly. To get the thousand to fifteen hundred that it might have fetched eventually, I'd have had to wait and spend at least a couple hundred on repairs. So I don't blame anyone but me.)

If an antique store or other commercial establishment lets something go real cheap, that's too bad for them not knowing their business--them's the breaks. I have found most antique stores overprice unplayable instruments they don't know anything about. But if you want to sell something you own, it's worth whatever you can get for it when you need to sell it--and anyone with half a brain knows to get more than one opinion (and at least one from a knowledgeable disinterested party) of something's worth. "Assessed value" is not very closely related to what you'll actually get for something unless its a seller's market. Plus, something you get from someone that doesn't know much about it usually needs some repairs which they don't care to pay for, and comes with no warranty to the buyer.

What's the Latin words for "seller beware"?

...but I am not advocating taking advantage of widows and orphans who need the money.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From:
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 09:19 PM

Folks,

It does my heart good to view all of the contributions. Only musicians could be so thoughtful and honest and full of concern for the victims of their scams.

So please don't turn yourselves in to the cops. God'll get you at the pearly gates anyways !!

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 10:02 PM

Since God, not man, invented mercy, I'll take my chances!

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Jul 00 - 10:05 PM

On the other hand, I recently sold a 3/4 size violin for $100 to a youngster just starting out. It had been too small for me for years, and needed to be played. I don't know what it was worth, and didn't want to know. Had to be more than $100, tho. She needed it,I had it, so......

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 02:33 AM

Many years ago, Jerry took a class called "Effective Negotiating". The basic premise of the class was that whenever two people are negotiating, no matter what they may say or do, what they are negotiating is satisfaction. As soon as both the buyer and the seller are both satisfied, a deal is struck. So, whatever price is paid for an instrument, if both parties are satisfied, it's a fair deal.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 02:42 AM

Bev and Jerry.......Was that one of Chet Karrass' courses or a clone. He's a fine guy and really pioneered that idea. I had a chance to work with him and his organization for about 6 months in '84 when I was coordinating the use of his materials into others of our corporate training program.

Twice tonite, I've been reminded of that past life.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Callie
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 08:14 AM

Darn. I've NEVER come across a bargain. I saw a beat up baritone sax in a pawn shop out in the country. i thought it might be a cheapie. The shopkeeper was asking about 5 times too much. I tried to tell him this, and that I would offer him a genuinely decent amount, but he thought I was scamming.

Callie

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 09:03 AM

There's a lovely story told by Danny Thompson (Pentangle, Richard Thompson, Sandy Denny, Nick Drake etc) of buying his first stand up bass.

In response to an advert, he went to find out more, and as a consequence, bought a reasonably priced double bass from an old guy.

The bass was painted black. Danny tied it on top of a car on the way back from a gig, and due to heavy rain, when he got the instrument home, the paint had washed off revealing a beatiful natural wood double bass. He investigated a bit and found that he'd got an instrument worth far more than the money he'd paid for it.

He went back to the old guy who'd sold it him, and explained the situation. The old guy simply responded: "I know what it's worth - but as you seem to want to play it so much, play it well - the original offer stands"

Ed

- Apologies if I've got any of the above details wrong, but the gist of the story is certainly correct

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: pastorpest
Date: 16 Jul 00 - 12:35 PM

Recently my mother-in-law passed away. She was a fine pianist, church organist, trained singer, piano teacher, singing teacher, and school music teacher. We kept the grand piano. She had already given me her recorders and some of her music. Now I have all the song books and folk related music. In the basement of her home, which I am clearing out to sell the house are boxes and boxes of music. The point is that when I find a good home for the music, I am grateful it will be valued and used. Getting paid what it is worth is secondary. Organ music, choral music, classical chamber music are going to different people. The family is simply glad to find homes for mother's music. Finally the proprietors of a second hand book store who deal in music, and from whom I have purchased some great out-of-print folk music are taking the remainder. What we will be paid, if anything is a secondary issue.

So if you get a bargain, musically speaking, the seller may be simply grateful that the instrument/music is going to a good home. Why assume the seller is taken advantage of?

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 03:58 AM

Years ago, (more than I care to recall) I was in Athens (Greece), and was visiting the fleamarket. On a stall, I saw a mandolin. It was painted in horrible matt, lumpy yellow paint. But what caught my attention was that it had a resonator, like a Dobro guitar. I tried to haggle with the guy, but he wanted the equivalent of £30 - which was a lot of money for me at the time. PLus, I had a mandolin, and I was hiking around Europe and thought "Nah..."

Every year or so, I kick myself.. I have never ever seen or heard of a Dobro-style mandolin since, and if I'd bought it I'd have a unique instrument.

So, the seller didn't know what he was selling and neither did I...

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 12:52 PM

Glad you said "almost" oggie! I ran an instrument and repair business for several years and spent an inordinate amount of time hunting for good old instruments, repairing and setting them up, and trying to sell them for what I felt were very reasonable prices.

Most probably why I wasn't able to make a living at it!

Peace

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Bert
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 01:13 PM

A friend of mine wanted to sell me a piano for $200. She needed the cash. I went along to take a look at it and told her I wasn't going to take it for $200 because it was worth more. I advised her to get it valued. She called her piano tuner who came by and tuned it for her and told her it was worth $800 or $900.

She played it a little after it was tuned and decided to keep it after all.

I'm still glad that I didn't just give her the $200 and take it.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 04:41 PM

Very interesting thread, Lynn. I guess my take is if AT THE TIME you know you're ripping someone off as they have no clue what your purchase is really worth, well, it's the American Way to pay as little as possible, but that doesn't make it ethical or right. I'd like to think that if that were the case, I might offer more, but then you run the risk of Well then I'll ask what it's worth and what if you can't afford that? If you FIND OUT LATER that you paid less than 10% of what something is worth, you got a bargain, good for you. If the seller finds out later, they'll feel like an idiot, and they'd be right - but they shouldn't feel ripped off unless they can demonstrate that the buyer knew it at the time. And didn't tell them. And even then, the emptor hasn't done anything really wrong... just taken advantage of your foolishness, which is the HUMAN way to do things, American or otherwise. VERY interesting little ethical dilemna, this is what I watch Law and Order for...

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 04:53 PM

I bought a $30 Martin 0-18 once. The woman selling it said she'd taken it to a local store and asked them if $30 was too much to ask for it, and they said, "No."

I didn't have the money to pay much more than that at the time, and it did need a neck reset, but I felt bad enough that I also bought a couple of cheap, in-need-of-repair guitars from her(a Sears Supertone Hawaiian guitar, plus something else) for another $25 (on a later visit, when I'd scraped up more money). After some work on them, I sold them for modest amounts. This was in 1967, when the going rate for non-Dreadnought Martins of that kind was $150-200, so don't use today's inflated prices as a mark of the bargain I got.

Of course, the free Martin I got later was another story.

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: SeanM
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:09 PM

Value's also relative to motivation for selling. I've been lucky enough to have acquired a mid '20s bowlback mandolin for $20, sold to me as the seller wanted someone who'd take care of it, and I'm learning (veeeery slowly) how to play it. It's easily worth a lot more, but we were both happy.

I've also sold things (non-instrument) along that line of reasoning. Sure, if I need the money I'll hold out and try and get best value, but I'd much rather sell something for a reasonable price (and collector values are quite often anything but reasonable) if it's going to someone who'll value the item and use it.

My two bits...

M

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:25 PM

How about this one. A friend had loaned my sister an older Takamine as he wasn't playing it. He then said if she ever wanted to buy it to let him know. We decided to get it for her for her birhtday, called and asked how much. He said $50 (Canadian) for the guitar and the hardshell case. We tried telling him it was worth more than that and we were willing to pay more, but he wouldn't hear of it. He said he was just glad that it was being played by someone who appreciated it instead of collecting dust as it had been for many years. We need more people like him.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 06:51 PM

I agree with Kendall. The seller set the price and evidently was happy about the deal.

I wonder if those who are concerned about "taking advantage" would feel the same if we were talking about purchasing a used car instead of a musical instrument?

DougR

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:25 PM

IMHO, NHDave got it right - value is relative. A musician, however, should never take advantage of another player who might be down on his/her luck. The laws of Karma, you know.

Along this same line (thread creep), I read a great feel-good story this weekend. John Stewart, formerly of the Kingston Trio (He replaced Dave Guard)had an auction to raise money for his wife's medical treatments. She is suffering from brain cancer. One of the items for sale was one of his treasured old banjos. The story is that a group of his "fans" got together and paid a hell whole of a lot more than it was worth for the banjo - and then returned it to him as a gift. In my mind, they all got more than market out of that deal. Value is, indeed, relative.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhranplayer....)
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 10:27 PM

I read somewhere that ultimate business transaction is one where both parties feel like they've won. In this world of corporate takeovers, leveraged buyouts and forclosed properties, any deal where both parties can live with the outcome can be considered fair. Your friend could have offered $900 and been told $2000.
At any rate, it's pointless to feel guilty after the fact. The time to listen to your conscience is before you make a decision.
My $0.02
Rich

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 01:13 AM

I agree with Kendell. The seller set the price, rejected the first offer and asked for more and the buyer met the asking price.

Would those concerned about taking advantage feel the same about buying a used car?

DougR

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 01:41 AM

'Spaw:

It definitely was one of Chet Karrass' courses. Jerry took the course via video tape, audio tape, and two books. Never saw Karrass in person. Nevertheless, that course made a profound difference in both of our lives.

In life, we negotiate far more often than most people are aware of. Understanding what is going on in a negotiation adds a new dimension to living.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST,Roger in Baltimore
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 08:07 PM

A lady I know loves to go to yard sales. She knows about 4 chords on guitar. One day she saw a guitar priced at $50. Opening the case she saw one of those valued National Guitars, an oldie worth thousands of dollars. She told the old man it was very valuable. He said, "You look like you'll enjoy playing it. That'll be $50."

I have yet to see the guitar, but I understand it is covered in drool from her other guitar playing friends lusting over it.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST,trucker dave
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 11:13 PM

couple of years ago i bought a 1950 fender lap steel, beautiful brown leather Geib case and old tube amp from an old guy for $100, still had the original strings and looked brand new. I didn't buy it to collect or resell, just to play(although everyone thinks i'm crazy for doing so) I was happy with the guitar and he was happy with the $100 and if guitars could talk it would probably say it was happy to be played after being in a closet for 40 years. So what's wrong with that?

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 01:49 PM

Doug, you ask "Would those concerned about taking advantage feel the same about buying a used car?". That's a good question 'cos a good friend of mine GAVE me a car once and I didn't refuse it. I needed the car and he knew it's value. I was grateful. The circumstances of the deal make a lot of difference, If someone is selling a treasured posession because they NEED the money then it's wrong the cheat them.

And again, in a store, one 'expects' the seller to know their job. If they don't know their own trade they are doing a disservice to their customers and only have themselves to blame. The exception to that is where there is a genuine mistake which should be pointed out. We were buying some plants once and the girl undercharged us. We pointed out the error, but she insisted (three times) that SHE was right. We didn't feel at all guilty about getting the plants for a tenth of their marked price.

You just have to judge each case on it's own merit and do your best.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 08:48 PM

Bert: I sort of had my tongue plunged into my cheek when I posed the car buying question. Good points though.

DougR

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST,Jimmy C
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 09:17 AM

I recently bought a beautiful Bacon Blue Ribbon Tenor Banjo in the original hard shell case for $150.00 (canadian). I told the seller it was worth more but he said he just wanted what he paid for it($150.00). He also wanted it to go to someone who would play it. He hadn't played it since he bought it in 1960 for $150.00. He was happy and I was delighted.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST,pariah
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 09:57 AM

...I'm with Jon on this, which is why I admire him so much. I wouldn't buy a grossly undervalued instrument from another individual unless I informed them of my knowldege first. I don't like the ethics of the capitalist approach and being deeply immersed in the business world, I know it operates largely without morals.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 05:49 AM

It's up to both the buyer and seller to do their research.
I'm happy with the Dobro model 36 I got from a former Skillet Licker for $500. And he was happy to sell it. I could have haggled it down. But I gave him what he asked. He said he couldn't play it anymore. 88 years old.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 04:45 PM

I got a Gibson long neck banjo for fifty bucks. Did I get a good deal?

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: selby
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 06:17 PM

In all things one mans junk is another mans treasure.

True story a mate who deals in junk wrote on the bottom of a poor quality pot dog Capo Dimonti which obviously it was not and priced it at £100. A gentleman arrived and started picking up items and picked up the pot dog saw the words on the bottom nearly wet himself. My mate during the ensuring conversation told him more times than enough that he thought it could be fake as he did not think that they did dogs, he then told him he did not want to sell it the gentleman insisted that he would give him £75 my mate then took his money the gentleman left thinking he had got one over my mate, absolutely ecstatic. On criticising my mate he felt no remorse and the guy had been over his stall again checking his stuff so he felt that he was happy with it.
Keith

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 08:11 PM

Who does the valuation?

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 08:21 PM

I once saw a charity shop (the British Heart Foundation in Nicolson Street, Edinburgh, to be precise) with a tuba in their window priced at 60 pounds. In excellent condition, with a case and mouthpiece. So I went in, told them they had underpriced it by a factor of about 20 at least, and went on to put the word round the local brass band scene so they could negotiate a fair price.

Came back from holiday a couple of weeks later to find out what had happened.   Yes they'd sold it to a band. Ok, what did they get for it? The manageress of the shop flatly refused to tell me.

That was the last time I offered them the least bit of helpful advice. Got a first edition of "Ulysses" for two quid? okay I'll take it.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 08:41 PM

If a retailer buys something and adds 100% on and resells it, are they being moral?
Should a non-retailer have a conscience for doing the same?

Can anyone get rich by giving value-for-money?
So, if someone gets rich, are they immoral crooks?

Are questions any help to answer questions? ;)

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 08:47 PM

The real question is whether or not it's ethical to steal from the blind. Morality about the answer will depend on who's doing the answering.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 09:18 PM

About 20 years ago a young salesman in a neglected looking music shop in Ilford
started boasting to me about how a 'stupid' old lady
came in with a vintage Fender Stratocaster
she'd found in her attic.
He offered her 50 quid which she was happy to accept,
and the shop made a profit of at least a few thousands..

Now this kid was either a bullshitting attention seeking fantasist
or a completely unscrupulous nasty rip off shithole...????

Either way, I never bought anything from that shop
or entered it ever again.

About 10 years ago I was idly researching the internet
for info on a rare 1970's English made electric guitar
that would usually reach about £600 on ebay, if one rarely made it to auction.

By chance I found an older guy who was selling one privately,
and after a long friendly and interesting phone call
he surprised me by saying
if I wanted it was mine for no more than about £70
because it needed a little fixing up.

The seller was an experienced relatively well known music business pro,
knew exactly what the guitar was and it's history;
but it seemed he didn't need the money
and was happy to pass the guitar on to someone
who'd genuinely care for and enjoy playing it...

I found out a bit more about him afterwards,
and it turns out he has an esteemed reputation in the business
for being an exceptionally decent bloke...

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Genie
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 09:40 PM

In 1980 I bought a 1965 Gibson L50 (or is it LG 50?) - a guitar the same size and shape as my '55 Martin 00018 - from a recovering drug addict who really needed the cash and asked just $125 for it. I'm sure it was worth several times that much, even back then, but I could not have paid much more for a second guitar back then, no matter how valuable the instrument.   The seller was happy (and might well have hocked it for much less had I not bought it) and I was happy to have a less-valuable (than the Martin) second guitar to carry around to various places.
About 2003 or so, having had a bad case of G.A.S. in 1998 and having 11 different guitars in my home, and needing cash, I sold several of the guitars at a yard sale.   I sold an older, Japanese-built Sigma dreadnaught for $100, having paid $50 for it at a thrift store a while back.   I sold my Martin backpacker for about the same - about 60% of the sale price I'd paid for it. And I sold the Gibson for either $290 or $300 - again, far less than its fair market value - but to a musician who really needed the guitar and would really appreciate it.   
I think everyone was happy, all around.
And the Gibson came back into my life recently, when a neighbor family stopped me on the street and said they had my old Gibson and the teenage daughter had adopted it as her primary instrument.   The dad is a multi-instrument musician and sound engineer, and it was a friend of his who had bought the Gibson but over the years hadn't played it a lot; my neighbor had been lusting after it and the friend had given it to him a year or so ago. Now it has a very appreciative budding young talent playing it, and I've made new friends and a valuable music contact indirectly from having bought and sold that guitar, both times well below the value of the instrument. The value of an instrument sale isn't necessarily measured in dollars.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Bettynh
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 09:46 AM

Not an instrument, but (from DT):


A TRUE STORY
(Kate Clinton, John McCutcheon, & Betsy Rose)

One morning while reading the paper, in search of a new set of wheels
The classifieds had a most curious ad in their listing of automobiles
I read in suspicious amusement what seemed like a great stroke of luck
"Corvette Stingray," it said, "low mileage, bright red, '83 model --
sixty-five bucks"

Well I was used to my newspaper's typos, still I called up that number
straightway
"'Bout that '83 'Vette -- have you sold the thing yet?" She said, "No,
you're my first call today"
I said, "There's been some mistake in the paper, they printed the ad wrong
somehow"
"Oh, no," replied she, "they got that from me." I said, "Don't sell that
car, I'm leaving now"

Well her address was in the part of the city where I'd ventured just one
time or two
Where the doctors, bank presidents, and lawyers are residents, and the
houses are massive and new
As I drove up her half-a-mile driveway, there in the heat of the day
In the sunlight it gleamed, the car of my dreams -- just sixty-five dollars
away

Well the interior was made of white leather, it had a 587 V-8
Bow wingspan doors, Hurst four-on-the-floor, and the 8-channel tape deck was
great
There was chrome on the chrome on the fender in an aerodynamic design
A phone, a TV, and it was bogglin' to me how for sixty-five bucks it was
mine

Well I suspected the woman was crazy, to be selling the car at this price
But as we walked down the lane she seemed perfectly sane -- she was charming
and really quite nice
And she smiled in such great satisfaction as she handed me title and keys
I said, "I've just got to know why you let this thing go -- what's wrong
with this car, tell me, please?"

Said she, "I'll be sixty come Tuesday, and I've lived here with my husband
Earl
After thirty years wed, and without a word said, he left me for a young
teenage girl
With his credit cards here on the table, I knew that he couldn't go far
Last night from Florida he sent a wire to me, said, 'I need money, dear --
sell the car!'"

@automobile @revenge
filename[ TRUSTORY
MC

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 10:35 AM

Didn't I mention the impoverished young folkie who bought a good quality Morris (guitar not car) from a junk shop for £30 - later the true owner saw him playing it and he had to hand it over. Nemo dat quod non habet.

Subject: RE: Buying Undervalued Instruments - Ethics?
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 10:06 PM

i used to travel and gig and busk a lot. i often hunted and found deals on instruments. i enjoyed looking in the junk stores and pawn shops. i got a beat up matrin d28 from 1954, for $500. it was a player beyond campare for the martin sound. it did cost me $ 1000 to fix it up for top resale but i got $4000 and i got to play it for a couple of years. well worth the fun and investment. i don't feel guilty at all. the guy i sold it to is a flat picker(its not a real finger pickers guitar)and he loves it like a child.

i got a several old gibsons and kept two.

i used to compare myself to a cracj dealer, i push to support my own habit.

i did once meet an elder lady who was selling her husnands last stuff to make ends meet. she had a violin worth at least twenty thousandn dollars. i thought at the ytime it was worth at least five thousand--i didn't have the final valuation. i was sympathetic to her plight and took her to a violin maker and appraiser who sold it for her for a the real price. she was asking $1500. there were several other buyers who were trying to get her to sell for two or three hundred dollars even though they knew its value. very wierd. they lost their chance. i felt good helping her out, but years later when i was broke for a while i did have a few regrets. now i'm comfortable again so i'm glad i did the right think.

the violin was an italian minor master form 1750ish. sje did sell me a very nice english hand made violin for a few hundred that sawed on untill i gave up fiddle and sold it to a kid who actually had the talent.

so sometimes its just find to make money, sometimes one should consider the effect you have on others in need.