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The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga

Related threads:
CM (Celtic Music, label) releases (10)
Bill Leader / Trailer Records (65)
Dave Bulmer-related enquiry (118)
Neil Sharpley Any News? - 2003 court trial (62) (closed)
Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer (245) (closed)
Obit: The LATE Dave Bulmer (August 2013) (29)
Dave Bulmer - Address (86)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6) (169)
master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?] (139)
morality of collecting (282)
Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer (367) (closed)
Photo of Bulmer required (24)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) (88) (closed)
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'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3 (124) (closed)
'Celtic / Bulmer' aborted Part 3 (12) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Pt 2 (96) (closed)


GeorgeH 21 Jun 01 - 09:00 AM
pavane 21 Jun 01 - 09:10 AM
Noreen 21 Jun 01 - 08:09 PM
pavane 22 Jun 01 - 12:34 PM
GeorgeH 22 Jun 01 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Terry Blankenship 24 Jun 01 - 01:59 AM
nutty 24 Jun 01 - 02:49 AM
pavane 24 Jun 01 - 03:17 AM
Ditchdweller 24 Jun 01 - 02:54 PM
Malcolm Douglas 24 Jun 01 - 03:11 PM
GeorgeH 25 Jun 01 - 05:26 AM
GUEST 25 Jun 01 - 07:25 PM
GeorgeH 26 Jun 01 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Dita (at work) 26 Jun 01 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,Roly H 27 Jun 01 - 03:22 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Jun 01 - 07:18 PM
Geoff the Duck 28 Jun 01 - 03:46 AM
GeorgeH 28 Jun 01 - 05:34 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Jun 01 - 02:17 PM
Greycap 29 Jun 01 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,Dita (at work) 29 Jun 01 - 10:34 AM
English Jon 29 Jun 01 - 11:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jun 01 - 12:52 PM
GeorgeH 29 Jun 01 - 01:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jun 01 - 03:51 PM
Ralphie 29 Jun 01 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,Les Jones, once of Ellesmere Port now of Man 30 Jun 01 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,Adrian Owlett (adrianowlett@ntlworld.com) 01 Jul 01 - 12:29 PM
GeorgeH 02 Jul 01 - 05:08 AM
ard mhacha 02 Jul 01 - 01:52 PM
GUEST 02 Jul 01 - 02:39 PM
Ralphie 02 Jul 01 - 04:02 PM
Ralphie 02 Jul 01 - 04:16 PM
GUEST 02 Jul 01 - 06:48 PM
Jon Freeman 02 Jul 01 - 07:31 PM
GUEST 02 Jul 01 - 07:39 PM
GUEST 02 Jul 01 - 08:36 PM
Jon Freeman 02 Jul 01 - 09:02 PM
Jeri 02 Jul 01 - 09:35 PM
Malcolm Douglas 02 Jul 01 - 10:01 PM
Jon Freeman 02 Jul 01 - 10:46 PM
Malcolm Douglas 03 Jul 01 - 12:09 AM
GUEST,andy from Penarth 03 Jul 01 - 02:25 AM
john c 03 Jul 01 - 02:28 AM
GeorgeH 03 Jul 01 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Dita (at work) 03 Jul 01 - 07:30 AM
GUEST 03 Jul 01 - 07:46 AM
Noreen 03 Jul 01 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Dita (at work) 03 Jul 01 - 08:03 AM
English Jon 03 Jul 01 - 08:13 AM
Geoff the Duck 03 Jul 01 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Dita (at work) 03 Jul 01 - 08:27 AM
GUEST 03 Jul 01 - 08:30 AM
GeorgeH 03 Jul 01 - 08:42 AM
GeorgeH 03 Jul 01 - 08:51 AM
Noreen 03 Jul 01 - 08:55 AM
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GUEST 03 Jul 01 - 09:12 AM
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GUEST,Dita (at work) 03 Jul 01 - 11:54 AM
GeorgeH 03 Jul 01 - 12:04 PM
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Jeri 03 Jul 01 - 05:12 PM
Ralphie 03 Jul 01 - 06:29 PM
Ralphie 03 Jul 01 - 06:58 PM
GUEST 03 Jul 01 - 08:56 PM
Tyke 03 Jul 01 - 10:49 PM
GUEST,Terry Blankenship 04 Jul 01 - 02:56 AM
pavane 04 Jul 01 - 03:22 AM
Eluned 04 Jul 01 - 03:44 AM
Eluned 04 Jul 01 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Max in Louth 04 Jul 01 - 04:23 AM
GeorgeH 04 Jul 01 - 06:40 AM
English Jon 04 Jul 01 - 07:03 AM
GUEST 04 Jul 01 - 07:26 AM
pavane 04 Jul 01 - 07:27 AM
GUEST 04 Jul 01 - 07:27 AM
English Jon 04 Jul 01 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Dita (at work) 04 Jul 01 - 07:55 AM
pavane 04 Jul 01 - 08:06 AM
Les from Hull 04 Jul 01 - 08:20 AM
pavane 04 Jul 01 - 08:30 AM
The Badger 04 Jul 01 - 08:38 AM
The Badger 04 Jul 01 - 09:01 AM
GeorgeH 04 Jul 01 - 09:53 AM
GUEST 04 Jul 01 - 09:56 AM
English Jon 04 Jul 01 - 09:59 AM
GeorgeH 04 Jul 01 - 10:21 AM
Richard Bridge 04 Jul 01 - 11:24 AM
pavane 04 Jul 01 - 11:33 AM
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GeorgeH 04 Jul 01 - 12:42 PM
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GeorgeH 04 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM
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GeorgeH 04 Jul 01 - 02:22 PM
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GUEST,Max in Louth 04 Jul 01 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Alec/Ramsey/I.O.M. 04 Jul 01 - 03:21 PM
GUEST 04 Jul 01 - 03:28 PM
marty D 04 Jul 01 - 05:15 PM
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Eluned 05 Jul 01 - 05:28 AM
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GUEST,Max in Louth 06 Jul 01 - 04:05 AM
pavane 06 Jul 01 - 04:06 AM
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Ralphie 06 Jul 01 - 04:14 AM
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GeorgeH 06 Jul 01 - 07:23 AM
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Rick Fielding 06 Jul 01 - 02:15 PM
GUEST 06 Jul 01 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,the latter 06 Jul 01 - 07:33 PM
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Subject: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:00 AM

Over in the Nic Jones Double CD thread Ralphie suggested I might point people at a summary of this saga. However I decided it was easier to summarise what I knew.

A brief summary

Mr Bulmer is clearly an exception to the rule that "no-one ever makes a fortune from Folk Music in the UK". He is also known for being rather litigatious (he can afford to be, unlike most if not all of those with whom he is in dispute). A degree of caution is advisable in recounting matters surrounding Mr Bulmer.

Bulmer runs (or ran, I've not checked that this is up to date):
   A recording company, sometimes called Celtic Music.
   A cd distribution company, sometimes called Celtic Music Distribution.
   A recording studio

Over the years, he has purchased the rights to an enormous quantity of the "back catalogue" of the British Folk Revival, especially from the 1970s and 1980s. It is probably true to say he owns a majority of the important recordings from this period. He has often acquired rights to this material by purchasing them from record companies "in receivership", which can possibly be taken as indicating that he has paid peanuts for these rights.

Most significant amongst his collection is the entire Bill Leader catalogue from the Leader/Trailer label, but he also owns a lot of small labels.

He has repeatedly declined to re-release most of this material. His argument has always been that he will re-release the material, in the course of time, when it is commercially sensible to do so. He has maintained that his purchase of the rights included having to buy up large stocks of vinyl, and that he wouldn't release things on CD until he had cleared those stocks. However there are clear cases where a particular recording is in demand, there is no vinyl stock left, and Bulmer has still declined to release on CD.

It also seems that Bulmer has been trying to charge 'over the odds' for his stocks of vinyl; I have seen a price of gbp 12 quoted for such a record, which would have been available for one pound when the label folded. However this may not have been Bulmer's doing.

There are 'well known' cases where artists have tried to obtain the rights to their recorded work back from Bulmer, and he has not been prepared to discuss terms with them. His argument has been that he is not prepared to 'split' the Leader/ Trailer catalogue. There has been at least the implication that he would be prep eared to discuss selling the catalogue as a whole.

Two specifics need to be mentioned in relation to this chapter of "The Bulmer story":

Bulmer was asked to either re-release the Nic Jones back catalogue (no vinyl available( on CD or to relinquish the rights to these albums, so they could be used to generate some income for Nic's family after his accident. Bulmer refused.

Pete Coe co-ordinated a proposal from those involved in the Banndogs LP (himself, Tony Rose and his ex-wife Chris, plus Nic) that they would all waive their rights in the recording to allow it to be published as a benefit for Nic. The suggestion was that Pete's recording company should make the release and so bear the production costs. Bulmer declined to participate and would not release the rights to the recording.

Chapter 2 of the saga is that there have been disputes between a number of performers who were under contract to Celtic Music, and Bulmer's company. Some of these have gone to the courts; a number of others have led to artists waiting, frustrated, for their CM contracts to expire (and, clearly, being unable to record during that period). As well as sitting on a large chunk of the history of the UK folk revival, Bulmer has at least contributed to the fact that significant developments in UK folk music have never made it to a recording.
It is widely believed that this is why Bulmer features on what is referred to as the "Musicians Union Blacklist". (As I understand it, this comprises advice from the union to its members that they should contact their local "union rep" before considering entering any contract with Bulmer).

It should also be mentioned that Bulmer insisted on putting what Dick Gaughan considered to be a totally unreasonable price on the Clan Alba CD, totally against Dick's wishes.

I belive that's about as much information as is in the "public domain".

Against this, it needs to be said:

   Bulmer has been "trickling" some of the "lost treasures" back onto CD release over the last few years.

   Bulmer has agreed to a number of tracks being included in various compilations, samplers, etc.

   Following Mick Tems' recent stroke, Bulmer did agree to release right to his back catalogue to allow "benefit" CD re-releases to be made.

   There are at least some artists who appear happy with the deal they have with CM - most notably Sid Kipper . .

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:10 AM

I hadn't realised that Mick Tems was involved as well! We both came down to Wales at about the same time, and used to go to the Ivy Bush, Pontardawe, in the early 1970's. Glad that HE managed to get a re-release anyway.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Noreen
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:09 PM

Thanks for the summary, George.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:34 PM

I wondered why the folk scene had gone a bit dead - I was away working in Europe in the early to mid 80's (But I got to see Peter Bellamy and Jim Couza in concerts in Luxembourg)


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 02:37 PM

BTW, Pavane, did you assume your alias from the Richard Thompson song of (almost?) that title?

(This will be embarassing if it proves to be your actual name . . .)

Cheers!

G.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Terry Blankenship
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 01:59 AM

If someone was doing to me what they are doing to Nic, I think I'd fing a way bootleg my own albums and get away with it. If they caught me and it went to court it would make just make them look even worse (if that is possible).

They have to know that their reputation is going to be mud with almost the whole folk world, if it isn't already.

Almost every major folk artist I have met meet is aware of this situation and is on Nic's side, and I have met a lot of them.

I am surprised they could ever get ANY new artist to sign with them.

Terry


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: nutty
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 02:49 AM

It just goes to show what problems could arise (EVEN NOW) with "cheap" CD deals. It may cost more to produce CD'S but it is really important that the singer "owns" the master.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 03:17 AM

I explained my name in a previous thread - nothing to do with Richard Thompson, I am afraid. It was taken from the name I gave to my boat in about 1976.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 02:54 PM

Anyone know where Bulmer lives? Perhaps an occasional delegetion could visit him to peacefully discuss the matter.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 03:11 PM

As has been said in previous discussions, he is a stubborn man, and that sort of thing would only make matters worse.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 05:26 AM

Thanks for the injection of good sense, Malcolm . . I think it fair to say that every possible means of retribution has been "considered" (including the Bootlegging one) - generally after a few pints too many - and fortunately in the cool light of morning good sense has prevailed.

As far as I can tell, Nic, Julia and family continue to re-build their lives - the last thing they want is a confrontation, either through the courts or in any other form. (Morality and the law aren't closely alligned in these matters). And, as I tried to point out, thinks aren't entierly black and white . .

However I don't think Mr Bulmer's signed any new artists in quite a long while . . .

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 07:25 PM

In defence of the man I was a member of a band who got a money up front deal from Celtic music to record an album (this was about 11 years ago and before I knew anything about the problems Nic Jones was having). We as a band were definately the winners of the deal financially. I am perhaps in a slightly different situation to some of his other signings in being not financially dependent income from music - it could be argued that this is how traditional music should be ie free from financial constraints.

Regards


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:22 AM

Guest sadly doesn't identify his/her self.

I have spoken to at least half a dozen other performers who were under contract with Bulmer and were totally unhappy with the way they were treated . .

Guest, did you ever get any royalty statements out of Celtic Music for this recording?

Cheers!

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:38 AM

Hi GeorgeH,
Just a couple of add-ons on reading this, and Ralphie's thread

Bulmer had a shop selling CDs in Glasgow until six months ago, it closed over the space of a weekend when he drove up to Glasgow and removed all the stock.
He had received formal notice,on the Friday, that Glasgow City Council was about to take action against the shop, to recover a four figure unpayed rates bill.

Another body of recorded material that has vanished into the black hole are the North East based labels Rubber & Black Crow.
Those albums that he has allowed to escape, are easily recognised as the labels are shoddly copied from the origional albums on to poor quality paper, no notes are provided, and he burns the CD off himself. Not even up to the standard of a good bootleg.
All the best to Nic and Ralphie
love, john.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Roly H
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 03:22 PM

Is Bulmer involved in the recently released 'Rout of the Blues' by the Dransfields on Leader? (Sound is OK, Artwork Poor)


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:18 PM

I tentatively suggest that where the musicians are still alive (too impractical otherwise), a post-term recording restraint would be likely to be unlawfully anti-competitive, and the songs could be cleared via the MCPS, so note-for-note re-recorded versions could be lawfully made


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 03:46 AM

The other week i was discussing this subject with a friend who knew Dave Bulmer from many years ago.
My friend said that he had heard that CM had gone out of business. He also believed that the rights to the recordings were owned by Celtic Music and not by Dave Bulmer himself. It was the opinion of my friend that this means that nobody currently owns the rights to the recordings, and that DB does not have any claim on them.
Any opinions???
Quack!


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 05:34 AM

If it's on Leader then it's Bulmer . . and also your description matches that I've heard of other Bulmer re-issues.

Geoff and Richard: My understanding is that all legal angles have been considered and are always under review by at least some of the parties involved.

Certainly there have been a couple of cases where artists have re-recorded work that's locked in the Bulmer archive . . while these have been close to the original they've not been "note for note" - a wise decision, IMO, since you can't recreate a "cut" you made 20 years earlier, and attempting to do so is probably doomed to failure.

If CM has gone out of business I'll lay money the Dave Bulmer trading as something else has acquired all its rights to everything. The guy is, without doubt, a shrewd business man. I deliberately failed to mention his re-imaging some of his operations (e.g. I've seen the Clan Alba double CD marketed on a flyer which makes no mention of Bulmer or "Celtic Music").

Cheers!

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 02:17 PM

If Celtic Musif was a limited company the Company House website www.companieshouse.gov.uk will tell you if it has been struck off or liquidated. Other records there may show you whether there was a liquidator appointed or even perhaps if the rights were assigned out in the course of liquidation. If not they may be bona vacantia and an approach to the Official Receiver (or is it the Treasury Solicitor) department of bona vacantia might enable the rights to be bought.

As far as I know the issue of whether non-UK copyrights owned by a UK company devolve according to UK law or the laws of the relevant foreign places, when the companies cease to exist has not been thoroughly litigated although there was a case a few years ago the name of which eludes me right now which might indicate that the laws of the foreign places applied.

US law (US corporations) I'm pretty sure in most states the rights automatically go to the shareholders.

On the UK front it might be worthwhile re-reading the Elton John and George Michael cases.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Greycap
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 09:45 AM

Sapper 82 FYI, Bulmer plays accordian at the 'Yorkshire Lass' public house in Knaresborough, N. Yorks. most Thursday nights with the Drouthy Band.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 10:34 AM

Please listen to George when he asks for caution.
I repeat Bulmer is an exceedinly stubborn man. There has been some suggestion, that his attitudes may be changing, although this may just be more "Bloody-minded Bulmerism".
Ralphie and George know the score, DB is getting increasingly isolated, he has lost his Scottish shop, lost trust of artists who were friends and workmates etc.

Direct confrontation, by well meaning supporters, can only do more harm than good to Nic's situation. I know how frustrating it is, but he is well aware of the strength of feeling against him.
If you want to take effective action, choose not to buy his products. This is hard when suddenly finding, "Rout of the Blues", "Under the Rain", "The Traveller", Bright Phoebus", or "No more Forever" in front of you in Tower or wherever, after 20 years of looking, but remember if you do buy them not a penny will reach the artist anyway.

Peace
Remember the tale of the old bull and the young bull,
love, john.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: English Jon
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 11:59 AM

as in,

"no no, we'll stroll in there and have the lot?"

EJ


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 12:52 PM

Is it all right drinking the cider of the same name?


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 01:07 PM

The cider has no connection . . or so I believe . .


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 03:51 PM

That's something anyway. Not that as cider goes it's that good, but it's a helluva lot tastier than Dave Bulmer.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 05:34 PM

Dita/John.... You never spoke a truer word... Please, all of you irate Mudcatters out there..don't do anything about this, or, I'll have to send the boys round.! Wait for Nic's "Unearthed" CD to appear, and then all will be calm... Please...(pretty please) "Chill my droogies." Love R xx


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Les Jones, once of Ellesmere Port now of Man
Date: 30 Jun 01 - 03:38 AM

I once lent DB a banjo in Leeds in 1972. He is left handed and played it instantly even though it was strung for a right hander. I was impressed. I got the banjo back without any trouble. It is worth remembering that DB is a chemist, cider was invented as paint stripper but as paint had not been invented people decided to drink it instead. Spooky or what?


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Adrian Owlett (adrianowlett@ntlworld.com)
Date: 01 Jul 01 - 12:29 PM

Hi everyone,

I know a lot about Mr Bulmer. I am currently in litigation against him. I am (as always) depressed to read what he has done to the Folk scene.

If Sapper E wants to get in touch with me I will happily be able to put him in direct contact with Mr B.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 05:08 AM

Can I, PLEASE, second the calming words of Ralphie and others . . .

ANY action against Mr Bulmer isn't going to help anyone (least of all those "actively" in dispute against him) AND is going to distress various people, including Nic and his family, who have always been absolutely clear about being scrupulously "above board" in their own dealings . .

Thanks,

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 01:52 PM

Hello All you cautionery lads and lasses. I drive a JCB in my sparetime and I wll be heading towards Knaresborough, That Yorshire Lass is in for a raping Slan Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 02:39 PM

There's always more than just one side to a story.

Nic Jones' story is certainly a sad one, but I don't know that Celtic Music releasing reissues of his back catalog would make for any happier an ending for Nic. It would certainly earn him some money, but it wouldn't change the reality of his life.

Dave Bulmer recently made Calennig's releases available for reissue--very quickly--in order to benefit Welsh musician Mick Tems, who recently suffered a stroke.

That doesn't strike me as the the act of a greedy, heartless profiteer.

Like I said, there is always more than one side to a story...


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 04:02 PM

Dear Guest.. Firstly any reason why you won't post your name ?? Secondly. I can't leave the phrase "It wouldn't make for a happier life for Nic." without a comment (against my better nature, I must say.) Well, pardon me for saying this.....but, 20 years lost royalties has made an enourmous difference to Nic's life. and, not for the better. Yes, I know about the Mick Tems story, (and Good Luck to you Mick) but, one good deed, doesn't negate two decades of humbug Angrily Ralph


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 04:16 PM

Dear " Guest" Have just re-read your message.....and I'm not angry anymore...I'm furious....To hide behind the cloak of "Guest" is, to me anyway, a despicable thing to do. And to invoke the problems of a lovely man like Mick Tems as, some sort of defence for Mr Bulmers unpleasant activities, is really beyond the pale. Tell us who you are, or stop posting messages. Ralph


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 06:48 PM

Ralph,

I wasn't defending Dave Bulmer.

Just commenting on the irony of him so quickly rereleasing Calennig stuff, while Nic's material remains unavailable.

It just introduces another twist to the saga, in my opinion.

Considering your close association is with Nic, I understand how it must hurt to see that Dave Bulmer has done for Mick what everyone wishes he had done for Nic many years ago.

But to me, it suggests Dave Bulmer might not be the monster he's been made out to be. In my mind, what he didn't do for Nic, doesn't negate the compassion and kindness he has recently shown for Mick Tems.

Just shows that Dave Bulmer is probably pretty human, like the rest of us. I, like many others, don't understand his reasoning for doing what he has with back catalogue material. Maybe I'm just a tad less judgmental and condemning about it.

Life is quite bittersweet at times, and this appears to be one of them.

Best of luck to all of you with the new release.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 07:31 PM

Guest, I know nothing about this whole business but being cynical about human nature, I could well suggest from the content so far in this thread that if "DB is getting increasingly isolated, he has lost his Scottish shop, lost trust of artists who were friends and workmates etc." being seen to do a good deed would help to restore favour... Then on the other hand he could be a reformed character...

Then again, perhaps your view point is valid but I tend to take comments from unidentified people who seem to go against the flow of general feeling as nothing more that trolls.

Jon


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 07:39 PM

Due to some of the more threatening comments made on this thread I for one do not wish to make my identity known. However I must state that in fact there is more than one guest active on this thread.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 08:36 PM

Jon,

I can understand your skepticism, but really, there is only one version of this story being told here.

But to give you some hope for humanity, here is the link to a Living Tradition editorial on the so-called "saga":

http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/edtxt23.htm

Not all of us presume guilt until innocence is proved.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 09:02 PM

Thanks Guest, I liked the last paragraph there. I'm not here to pass judgement (particulaly on matters I know nothing about) but it does seem a real pity that these works are not made availible.

Jon


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 09:35 PM

About the "one side of the story" - there are facts about refusal to re-issue recordings, lawsuits and blacklisting by the Musicians Union in the UK. On the other side, we have a couple of CDs that squeaked out. It may actually be a nearly one-sided issue, unless you have some facts we're not aware of?


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 10:01 PM

There are indeed several sides to any dispute.  I speak here as someone who has had work published by people who have subsequently gone to the lengths of winding up one "front" company in order to avoid paying their contractual debts to me and to others, pretending that the business was not financially viable, and who nevertheless have continued that business, uninterrupted, through a new "front" company: presumably, the business was only unviable if they paid the bills.  Companies legislation in the UK and many other countries is so biased and open to abuse that it is virtually impossible to ensure proper treatment for freelance workers (which includes musicians); the current government promised to rectify the situation, but has so far done nothing.

I have also been prevented from re-publishing work because, without my knowledge or consent, rights in it claimed unilaterally by the people who originally commissioned it from me were assigned to other publishers who have no interest in ever re-issuing it, but who nevertheless are quite prepared to use their financial muscle to prevent the originators of the material from doing anything with it.

Much of this probably amounts to an unlawful restriction of trade; it is, however, pretty well impossible for ordinary people like us to do anything about it; we simply do not have the money for the legal fees.

Of course, I have no idea how far my own experiences in another area of publishing might parallel those of people who have in the past dealt with Mr. Bulmer, though I do know people who have worked with him, and have heard curious stories.  Clearly, however, I am less than inclined to give such people the benefit of any doubt: "By their works", as the saying goes, "ye shall know them".

Nobody, so far as I know, is complaining that Bulmer refuses to invest his own money in re-releasing their records; they are, however, complaining that he refuses to release to them rights which he has for many years shown no signs at all of wishing to exercise in his own behalf, which would allow them to re-release their own material and perhaps make just a little money out of it before they die.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Jul 01 - 10:46 PM

Thanks Malcolm for explaining the position of the aritsts to me.

Just a comment on your first paragraph and the UK in general: It really makes me sick that a company can get away with it. I guess one could call it legalised theft.

Jon


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 12:09 AM

It is exactly that; it happens every day.  Company law appears to have been formulated to protect well-off people from the consequences of their own incompetence; regrettably, it always seems to be at the expense of those who do not have the luxury of a limited liability company behind which to hide, and who are as a result responsible in law -as well as morally- for their own actions, and their own debts.  Unlike those who steal from us, who have a moral obigation only.  One can perhaps forgive (though not excuse) genuine incompetence; the trouble is that this legislation is so often used deliberately to defraud.

The egregious R*ssell Ch*rch, to whom I referred to obliquely above, was subsequently investigated by the Department of Trade and Industry, but it's almost impossible to prove deliberate fraud in these cases, so his many creditors got nothing.  So far as I know, he continues to run the same business behind the cover of the latest of a long string of "front" companies.

I don't for a moment suggest that Dave Bulmer is in any way a comparable case, or that he has ever had dishonest motives; it is difficult, though, to understand why he has persisted in what appears to be such selfish and unreasonable behaviour, and it is certainly the case that current legislation not only makes such things possible, but seems almost to encourage them.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,andy from Penarth
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 02:25 AM

I dont know this bloke Bulmer but have read the "saga" for some time. He sounds obnoxious and I cant un derstand why instead of just carping on about him you don't do something. I read that he has ripped off musicians and friends/business acquaintences with great abandon. It's obviously a game to him. But if you let him get away with it he will enjoy his game even more and history has shown time on time that appeasement don't work!

The man is obviously a bully and we all know what SHOULD be done to bullies. I support the jcb owner -= good luck to you - at least youve got some bottle.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: john c
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 02:28 AM

The subject of Dave Bulmer/Nic Jones keeps appearing at regular intervals on this forum and this is the first time that someone (all be it anonymously) has attempted to, at least partially, defend him. As a former folk-musician, its hard to believe that Bulmer doesnt care at all about the music which he owns. And, as a person, its hard to believe he could refuse Nic Jones the access to the royalties he really would need. Somehow I have the feeling that theres more to this than we already know. Just a thought - are there no Mudcatters who are in contact with DB and could talk him into putting his side of this sorry saga and maybe help clear up this issue once and for all?


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 05:47 AM

Like Ralphie, I am currently furious at those Guests in this thread who lack either the courage or the honesty to attach their names to their ill-informed views. However, my guess is that at least one of them is Mr or Mrs Bulmer attempting to muddy the water.

There are two sides to any story. I went to a great deal of trouble to put aside my personal feeling and present a calm and balanced account of the Bulmer saga. Guest the gutless, where is the furst mention of Bulmer's agreement to release Mick Tems back catalogue? Why, in my original account . . what a surprise.

Let me make this quite plain . . . I PERSONALLY know several people who have direct dealings with Mr Bulmer. Several of them are people I have known for many years and whose work and integrety I trust ABSOLUTELY. Is the anonymous Guest saying these people are liars? That they have conspired together to blacken the good name of Mr Bulmer?

I have also spoken to at least one person who has defended Mr Bulmer strongly, a couple of people who are quite happy in their dealings with him, and a couple of others who see at least some "mitigating circumstances" to his behaviour. And my conclusion is that EVEN making maximum allowance for people's views being coloured by their own experiences and feelings, my original account here is more than fair to Mr Bulmer.

Now if and when the anonymous guest(s) come up with some evidence for their defence of Bulmer I'll be more than happy to re-consider my views. Until then I fear I feel, along with my own anger, great sadness that through their ignorance they slight those varioous artists I know to have suffered, to a greater or lesser degree, through their involvement with Dave Bulmer.

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 07:30 AM

Guest states that "there are more than one "Guest" participating on this thread", however the other guests have had the good grace to identify themselves by some means.
Some of us contribute from more than one site, but you can only have membership from one, that's why I'm sometimes Dita and at others "Guest Dita (at work)". We were not seeking your name and address "Guest", just that, if you have the courage of your convictions, at least give us a unique identity that we can engage with, otherwise all unidentified guests might, or might not, be the same.
It is curious that all the anon. postings are pro-Bulmer.
love, john.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 07:46 AM

The subject of Dave Bulmer/Nic Jones keeps appearing in on-line folk music forums at regular intervals because there is a small, core group of Nic's self-appointed "defenders" who have such extreme views about Bulmer that they've made this whole sad scenario into something of a folk jihad.

This situation strikes me as no worse than what Alan Lomax did to Leadbelly. Countless other collectors and publishers have done the same when they collected and published someone else's music and kept the royalties for themselves.

Yes, it's a real problem. No, there likely won't be a solution which benefits Nic Jones in his lifetime. Yes, that is very sad for Nic.

But it also seems that Nic and some of his friends have found a way around the problem, to the extent that we are now seeing some of his back cataloge here and there. With the release of the new CD, it appears things are looking up for him and his wife financially.

So why beat the dead Bulmer horse again? What purpose does it serve, but to whip people up into a frenzy, as this whole thread has once again, long before this GUEST ever entered into it...

I have no idea what kind of person Dave Bulmer is, but I do know that the Jones jihad is way out of proportion to the "morality" (or lack thereof) of what Bulmer has done regarding Nic.

Histrionics is what this is about, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't like the fact that Bulmer doesn't release back catalogue material as much as anyone.

But the suggestion the catalogue Bulmer or Celtic Records has rights to should be considered a national treasure, and his failure to use his own money to produce new commercial product with it an act of "cultural vandalism", is way over the top in my book.

The problem of having the rights to old masters, whether owned by a commercial or not for profit entity (like the School of Scottish Studies), will always present disagreements between the artists and their estates, and the entity with the rights. These are complex issues, to be sure, and there just plain aren't easy answers to them.

But even if Bulmer had released the rights or put out new CDs of Nic's material, Nic would still be disabled. Would his comfort level be better than it has been? I don't know. I don't know how much rereleases of Nic's material would actually have earned him, and nor does anyone else.

But to make an argument, which I believe the Jones camp are doing, that Nic's suffering is a result of Dave Bulmer's greed and immorality, is specious.

I've never seen Nic Jones publicly make a statement or an issue about this. Ever. So if Nic himself doesn't feel compelled to make a public issue out of what's happened, what the hell possesses Folk Roots and this on-line Jones jihad to keep bringing it up over and over and over? Is that supposed to make Nic Jones and his wife feel better?

Or are they getting on their high horses of indignation to make themselves look good?

Did it ever occur to people that the reason Nic himself isn't involved in this mudslinging is because he wants to leave it in the past and get on with his life? Being bitter and vindictive, like some of the Jones camp are, won't help Nic's situation. Like I said, Nic's accident and his disability are very sad. But it has been many years since he was disabled, and people do need to heal. Ripping open Nic's wounds publicly, over and over, serves absolutely no good purpose for Nic or anyone else.

And how paranoid can a person get about the GUEST thing? I'm actually Dave Bulmer? Good grief.

Why not just let the whole Bulmer thing go, and let Nic enjoy the limelight of his new release? Would that be so horrible? Why whip up such a frenzy that people start suggesting that someone physically assault Bulmer at his local session?


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 07:52 AM

Why not identify yourself, GUEST, as suggested above?


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:03 AM

Guest, the same or another, who knows, cites a Living Tradition Editorial as another side of the story. This infact, was an open invitation to Bulmer to put his case some FOUR YEARS AGO! I do not recall any uptake of Pete's offer ever being printed in the intervening years.
"Not all of us presume guilt.......". Let's hear the other side then. Four years to relpy is excessive don't you think?
Is this the best you can trawl (?troll) up to defend Bulmer, in the light of the facts presented, (facts mind you not "hearsay")?
love, john


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: English Jon
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:13 AM

The trouble with being a musician is you don't get compensation for an industrial accident, such as a car accident travelling to a gig.

That's why people think it's important that Nic should get some royalties. Also, why not re-release the material to meet the OBVIOUS demand? For god's sake, if Bulmer is worried about ancilliary costs, I'll re-master the tapes for him for nothing.

EJ


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:20 AM

The very restrained and balanced comments made by almost everyone contributing to this thread can in no way be likened to a Jihad. It is not particularly even about Nic Jones, The Celtic Music back catalogue was acquired from several defunct recording companies and individuals and contains works by many well respected performers, Nic just happens to be one the world is more aware of. Many people who I know would like to be able to buy new copies of those recordings, either because thy missed the original release, or because an old LP has worn out, or maybe they would like to play it on CD.
They are being denied this opportunity because sombody (for whatever reason) is sitting on the rights to re-publish the works. Most of us do not care whether the reason is personal or commercially motivated, we just view it as a situation which we do not regard as being fair to ANY of the performers who are being denied an opportunity for financial gain from their own work.
Nobody is expecting Mr. Bulmer to delve into his own pocket to produce and market the recordings, we would just like him to allow a situation where the performers could take their own steps to do so if they should so wish.
Is asking for people to be treated fairly a Holy War?
Perhaps it is! I am NOT a Christian, but isn't that why they nailed somebody to a tree? He asked people to treat others fairly!
Thus ends the Epilogue/Monologue.
Quack
Geoff the Duck!


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:27 AM

Englsh John, another reason for the concern over the Leader etc, catalogues, is that at least some of them, have been left for so long, that the masters have become unusable. This is one aspect of the cultural vandalism, that some of us are upset about.
love, john


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:30 AM

As someone said, the Living Tradition editorial is really old. So is this story. If Bulmer were going to be compelled to change his mind by appeals to his humanity, his wallet, or whatever, I think its reasonable to presume he'd have done it by now.

Same with the idea of him responding to his critics. Clearly, Bulmer has no intention of doing that either after all these years have passed.

Like I said, its been many, many years now, so why keep beating the Bulmer dead horse? Doing so won't change a thing.

The only reason I can fathom that this small group of people keep ripping open Nic Jones' wounds over this in public forums, is because of the attention *they* get. Because it makes *them* feel better.

Never underestimate the seductiveness of vindictiveness. I can't imagine what rehashing this thing over and over and over will do to help Nic and his wife. It is all so much water under the bridge at this point. A new CD is being released.

Why not celebrate how far Nic has come? How rich he is in friends? How lucky he is to be alive, to be seeing this dream of his--of seeing his music out there again, realized? Why bring Bulmer into this at all? Why put that dark cloud over what should be a happy time for Nic?


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:42 AM

For fuck's sake Guest, are YOU:

1) challenged in some way

2) calling me a liar? (fine, but do come up with some evidence if you want people to believe you)

3) on a retainer from Bulmer

4) grinding some other personal axe you prefer not to reveal?

As my summary made plain, the Nic Jones saga is only one of a whole number of "issues" against Bulmer. (On a quick scan it occupies only 5 lines of my first account.) For instance, his "blacking" by the MU has NOTHING to do with the Nic issue.

You alone are making this into a one issue campaign.

You concede there's a problem. Sadly your own inadequacies prevent you from seeing that some of the "frenzy" you claim to be afronted by was less than serious . . .

Also, if you knew anything at all about the UK folk revival you would know that in that context the collection Bulmer holds rights to does include National treasures.

Do you deny that Nic has lost income by Bulmer's refusal to release rights to his material? If not, how is the claim that Nic has suffered specious?

The only lack of morality around here is yours. Unfortunatly you clearly have lost the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. Or, indeed, to engage in coherent argument. Indeed, the only serious vindictiveness in this thread is yours, directed against those who are speaking against Bulmer.

Your postings are, I am sorry to say, contemptable. Which I suppose is a good reason for cowering behind the "guest" label. I suspect a trawl of DejaNews (were it still there) would reveal your identity, as I can only recall one individual who has reached your level of paranoia on this issue.

And amongst the factual errors in what you write:

No one has asked Bulmer to put his money into releasing his "back catalogue".

"In search of Nic Jones" and "Unearthed" are NOT part of Nic's back catalogue; every (?) track on them is "previously unreleased".

There's no "ripping open of Nic's wounds" here; Ralphie's contacts with Nic and Julia have been openly acknowledged throughout. (Whereas you, with NO contact with Nic or his family, claim to know so much more than we do . . )

To any that are offended by my opening remark, I apologise. But this woman goes beyond the bounds of both reason and decent human behaviour.

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:51 AM

Guest said:

Never underestimate the seductiveness of vindictiveness.

Which exactly summarises her contributions here.

Listen, madam, there are people who are not aware of the Bulmer/CM saga. That's why I printed the summary. Tell me, where in that summary do you think I am less than fair? Or is it too much to ask you to justify your hysterical "contributions" here.

And, in case you haven't noticed, it's an ongoing saga.

Despite your claims, no-one is "ripping open Nic's wounds" (we're the ones who have contact with him, directly or indirectly, remember!) So what possible objection is there to my reminding people of this situation?

G.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:55 AM

GUEST, have you read any of the other contributions to this thread? It is you who are flogging a dead horse by repeating yourself while several others have been trying to explain why they, and Nic and Julia, are upset by this ongoing situation.

It is not over, as Mr Bulmer could still change the situation any time he chooses.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:00 AM

Woman, George? Why????


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:12 AM

Look, I'm in complete agreement with the criticisms of Dave Bulmer/Celtic Music not releasing rights or the material.

What I am not in agreement with is the Jones defenders use of those facts to whip up hysteria, and the suggestion that someone should do bodily harm to Bulmer. Which serves no one, and is pretty borderline behavior on the Internet anyway.

Whether the artistic product the Leader, et al catalogues contain is "national treasure" is a matter of widely varied opinion, depending upon one's orientation to folk music specifically, and music in the public domain generally.

Not everyone agrees about what music is culturally valuable, much less a national treasure.

This thread is about the histrionics of a small group of people who don't like Bulmer.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:27 AM

Perhaps, GUEST, you would like to go back and read George's original post. No histrionics or whipped up hysteria, but an even-handed, careful summary of this situation.

That is what this thread is about.

If Mr Bulmer released the rights, which you agree he should do, there would be no problem.

No argument.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:33 AM

Once again. Listen Carefully!
Most of us couldn't give a SH*T about DB!
WE are contributing because we can see a totally unfair and unjustifiable situation, which we would like to see remedied.
We are not afraid to post under our own identities, unlike GUEST, who obviously has some ulterior motive for not admitting who they might be. It is GUEST who seems to having a vindictive attack on the family and friends of Nic Jones, a man who I only met a couple of times, but who was courteous, and very talented. I remember seeing him perform only a few days before his accident, and was verypleased a number of years later when I heard that he had recovered sufficiently to be able to play again.
I for one would never take part in something which was intended to cause him grief.
The only contributor who seems to wish to do so is GUEST. Why don't you just go away and pull the wings off flies, or something!
GtD


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:40 AM

"Jones defenders" - please tell us of what Nic is accused?
"to whip up hysteria, and the suggestion that someone should do bodily harm to Bulmer" -I think if you bothered to read the thread, that every time that has been suggested it was condemmed by genuine mudcatters, and calm and reason was asked for. No one here is whiping up anything, or at least no one with a name is
john.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:43 AM

Small group of people

I talk to quite a lot of people involved in the UK folk scene both here on Mudcat and out there in the real people. Many of these people think it's a shame that Nic Jones' work, as well as the work of many other singers and musicians has been unavailable because of Mr Bulmer. Many more would like the opportunity to find out more about these early recordings, but come to folk music later than me. I'm fortunate enough to have the recordings in question on vinyl, although I would like to replace them with CDs as the vinyl copies are well-worn.

In my opinion nobody is using facts to whip up hysteria. The facts do bring out strong feelings in people, though. I agree that threats of bodily harm have no place in this forum, but I don't believe that it was meant seriously.

Now if you want to see a really 'small group of people' hold a meeting of 'Bulmer defenders'.

Les Ward (that's my name)


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: IanC
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:44 AM

Hey

Can we all cool this. The last ?15 posts have said literally nothing. I for one was reading the information and quite interested because it was a situation I had previously known nothing about. I'm not sure I'm coming back to this thread again. It's just a private slanging match.

Read what you've written and honestly ask yourselves what it is contributing.

Thanks
Ian


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 09:44 AM

Noreen states:

"If Mr Bulmer released the rights, which you agree he should do, there would be no problem."

That's right.

Where we disagree is over what is appropriate debate in public forums when we don't get our own way, and people (in this case Bulmer), don't do what we think they should do.

This is the fifth time since the Folk Roots article appeared about Nic Jones, that I've seen this happen in on-line folk music forums. And I don't even follow these threads (which generally always fall under a "Nic Jones" header of one sort or another), or the folk music forums that closely.

Personal vendettas and jihads have no place in these forums, and their appearance seems to result in just the sort of thing we've seen here. Everyone gets all up in arms about a person who isn't there to defend themselves, then someone makes a so-called "joke" about paying the asshole (sic) a little visit, etc etc etc.

It's sickening. Enough is enough.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: The Badger
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 10:53 AM

GUEST : only you disagree about what is suitable for debate in this public forum - obviously anything you disagree with. Is this why you are so paranoid as to introduce terms such as 'jihad' to the debate. GeorgeH and others set out the situation clearly and factually - we are now discussing this. Your comments - along with anonymous letters and phonecalls - should be treated in the manner they deserve.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 10:55 AM

As I've said before, Guest, you are a hypocrite.

The only person persuing a jihad is yourself, and it's an anti-English one. As those who recognise you from your r.m.f./uk.m.f. postings will know.

Oh, and can you please cite a single instance of someone who knows what's in the Bulmer collection and doesn't believe it includes national treasures. For starters it includes the Bill Leader's various recordings of "source" performers. You demand high standards - of evidence and ethics - from others but apply no such checks on your own outpourings.

Ian C - you are, of course, right and I should heed your advice. Perhaps when I stop being hopping mad at this anglophobic woman's lies and distortions I will manage to do so. Until then I apologise for prolonging the agony.

Regards,

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 11:05 AM

Guest:

I suggest you look up the meaning of the word guest in a good dictionary and then start behaving like one. I don't think that it's any of your business to tell us what we should or should not discuss in our forum.

This thead started because someone thought that it was a good idea to post as many of the facts as we had about this particular situation. If you have any facts to contribute, please do so. Otherwise, shut up.

Les


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 11:54 AM

One reason that this thread was started was to provide a cohesive answer to the people who do not know the history, and turn up regularly on threads, (there was at least two this week), looking to find out where they could buy items from Leader/Trailer ect.
"I've just heard an album by ..... ......., but I can't find any of their older stuff".
I was in a position to buy many of these first or even second time round, (but even I have gaps I'd like to fill among the gray covered Leaders which included many source singers, some from wax cylinder recordings), and many are not so fortunate.
I don't know why they are not being made available, but I have it on good authority that the masters are deteriorating rapidly, that worries me.
love, john.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 12:04 PM

Dita/John:

I did hear a suggestion that copies of the wax cylinders which Bulmer owns are also held in the Library of Congress collection . . do you know anything about this?

(As I understand it they comprise or include Percy Grainger's field recordings. I have also been told that if they haven't been archived to another medium by now the chances of getting meaningful sounds off them are not good.)

G.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,What's My Line?
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 12:19 PM

This is getting to be quite amusing...

So who are you, GUEST(S)?

Dave Bulmer?

Mrs. Dave Bulmer?

An agent of Dave Bulmer's?

A woman or a coward?

Will all of you guests sign in please?


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 05:12 PM

It's not flogging a dead horse, because the horse isn't dead. The longer the situation goes on without signs of change, the more people get angry, and the more angry people get. I'm not one of the handful you (guest) says keep bringing it up, but I'm angry about it and wish something were done.

Refraining from discussing the matter will not make the anger go away. What will make people shut up about it is for something positive to be done. As far as I'm concerned, until that happens, people will and should voice their opinions. There may be someone who hasn't heard about this.

As far as I'm concerned, it must be an artiste's worst nightmare that he be rendered incapable of performing and his previous material, and income, is deliberately witheld. It's just my opinion, but this seems nothing short of evil.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 06:29 PM

Hello everybody, peeps!! Spoke to Julia Jones about this little spat on the "Cat"..She and Nic are very sad about it... The situation as far as "Unearthed" is concerned, is that I am still putting it together, we've had a change of heart as to what will be included, (and a few cross words!) but, it will be 2 CD's totalling about 2 hours of stuff, both new and old. so, watch this space. As for the "Guest" stuff that seems to have filled far to much space on this thread, I'll say 2 things..... George H.....enough, already...Time to butt out..(Big respect!) Guest(s).....sorry to have shouted the other day, but, my sadness at your attitude to this matter knows no bounds. To all the rest of you chaps and chappesses out there, It's lovely to hear your sane viewpoints, thats why I visit this site so often.....and as for the guy with the JCB....!!! Mmmmm not a good idea, we could all end up in a lot of trouble!!! Be Good and careful all of you....Much love Ralphie xx (and Nic/Julia)


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 06:58 PM

Oh...and another thing, before I forget... a little reply to "Guest" message, timed at 0830 3rd July. Quote "Why not celebrate how far Nic has come?"....we do. Quote "How rich is he in friends".....very. Quote "How lucky he is to be alive"....very. Quote "Why bring Bulmer into this"....never wanted to. Quote "Why put a dark cloud over what should be a happy time for Nic"......My answer to this last comment would probably get me banned for life.....but, here goes...All Mr B has got to do, is hand over the tapes to the lost 4 albums of Nics...He'd suddenly become a well liked man. Fairly simple "Guest" isn't it?? We'd even forget about 20 years of misseed royalties...etc. and before anybody accuses me of an interest (other than musical) I'm not getting a penny through my involvement with Nic, and I can't understand how any right thinking human being gets a kick out of denying poor musicians from the proceeds of their craft....I'll get angry again if I continue...so, I'll stop...love to the many "Catter" freinds I've made....Goes to show that there's still some...soap in the hole (Shurely shome mishtake....ed!) Ralphie xxx


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 08:56 PM

Apology appreciated, and gratefully accepted Ralphie.

I hope the new album is a great success.

Best of luck to you all.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Tyke
Date: 03 Jul 01 - 10:49 PM

He that is without sin should cast the first stone! How many mudcatters can honestly say that they have never ripped off an Artist? To say that you have not you will never have received a bootlegged version of an Album. Folk Club organisers will have always made payments to PRS so that PRS can pay the artists. Have you always bought sheet music or have you just used the Mudcat to get the words of songs or copied them down off the Artists Album. Cyrill Tawney songs are available on the Mudcat are they not? Cyrill Tawney is the Oldest Professional Singer Songwriter still performing and trying to earn a living! How many singers in free sing arounds have you heard sing one of Cyril's Songs. It's not just Cyrill or Nick that lose income.

Maybe clubs, gatherings should all make a donation to the holder of the copyright to the songs that are being performed. The English Folk Song and Dance Society hold quite a lot of copy rights on "Traditional Music". There seem to be lot's of music books being published at this moment by different publishers who only have to change the odd note hear and there to get round copyright.

Celtic Music has appeared on the Blacklist of the Musicians Union for 10 years and during that Time Dick Gaughan was recording on the Celtic Music Label. He seemed quite happy then and must have known all the Dave Bullmer stories then. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that Dick Gaugan is quite Left wing.

If you have any dealings with Dave Bullmer and or Celtic Music you should contact the Musicians Union. If you have any dealings with anyone with regard to signing a contract you should contact the Musicians Union. You should join the Musicians Union and follow their advice. Which will tell you that should get your solicitor to read any contract before you sign it! If you don't well you have only yourself to blame. Oh Dave has or had a partner who is a solicitor!

Oh and as for buying up defunct record labels and vinyl for a £1 an album I think Dave once told me he only paid 25p. Businessman he is he is not running a charitable organisation Dave is just in my view trying to make a living. At least he is doing it with the music that he Love's and not just trying to churn out commercial crap. Maybe he is not making the fortune that people think that he is and he has to sell to reduce his stock and to earn some money before he reinvests his capital in re-releases. Only Dave knows his reasons for hanging on to things.

One thing is for certain Dave is in business to make money and as a businessman uses his knowledge to buy product at the cheapest price. It seems pointless to expect him to give away what we all agree is a valuable asset. It's just a case of offering him a fair price and buying back Nicks writes to his music. However you will still need to distribute the album to get it to the shops do you really have the contacts. If you do are you a rival record company? George Clarke


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Terry Blankenship
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 02:56 AM

I first became aware of all of this from Dick Gaughan, when I asked him after one of his shows if his "Kist O' Gold" Cd would ever be made available. He told me that it and what amounted to a "national treasure" of traditional recordings would possibly never be made available to the public. He was not happy about the situation and pretty much said what George and Ralphie have said in this thread. If you go to his web site right now you will see this message concerning his "Kist O' Gold" Cd:

"At the time of writing this, the master tapes of this album appear to be in the possession of CM Distribution, England. As is the case with most of the vintage recordings they own, they do not seem interested in releasing it so I believe it is currently unavailable. Their address is Hookstone Park, Harrogate, North Yorkshire HG2 7DB England. Tel: (+44) 01423 888979 Fax: 01423 885761"

The next time I heard about it was when Martin Carthy suggested that I listen to Nic Jones first 4 lps. He told me that they were out of print and told me why. Once again saying pretty much what George and Ralphie have said in this thread about it.

They are not the only ones. I have had quite a few very well known traditional musicians tell me the same things.

It seems that almost all of the great traditional musicians are aware of this situation and have either been affected directly by it, or know someone personally who has.

They have not forgotten it, and won't unless and until the situation changes.

Any time in the future when someone like me tries to find one of these lost treasures on Cd, they will find out it is out of print, and find out why.

Nic Jones is not the only musician affected by all of this. His case is definitely the one that makes Dave Bulmer look the worst though.

Dave could do wonders for his public image just by releasing Nic Jones material to back him. Surely he knows this.

Terry


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 03:22 AM

Did this also affect Peter Bellamy?


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Eluned
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 03:44 AM

folks, I've just read this whole thread, have found it very informative.
But, I have one question; given that this man Bulmer is refusing to remaster or preserve some very old recordings that are on tape and are at this very moment DECAYING (oh horrible thought!) so that even he won't have them after a while, even when it isn't going to cost him money (though possibly will cost him loss of control over them), has anyone asked whether he is sane?
Eluned


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Eluned
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 03:50 AM

Er, part of the point being, if he isn't sane, then he being in control of such irreplaceable items is truly a tragedy, and might be looked as a kind of "force of nature" rather than a stubborn, possibly unrealistic person that a lot of people are very unhappy with. Oh, and please don't think I don't take this seriously, I'm prone to understatement.
Eluned


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Max in Louth
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 04:23 AM

Take heart Tyke. Bulmer's partner may be a solicitor, but what a solicitor. Try finding this page. Is he a good guy or is he a bad guy - the choice is up to you.

http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/archive/oldarchiveframe.asp?ArticleName=/gazettearchive/1999-04-09/00000044.html


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 06:40 AM

Since we're back on facts . . .

Ralphie, point noted, will do (more or less, but then "you know me . . ")

Terry B, thanks for balancing Tyke's comments about Gaughan . .

Tyke, no one has denied Bulmer's right to make a living from his investment. We all form our own conclusions on the information we have in our possession; you seem to arrive at differnt ones to me. It might be interresting to discuss our differences over a pint, but I'd guess neither of us can speak entirely freely in this forum.

Regards

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: English Jon
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:03 AM

George Clarke/Tyke.

If you see DB, why not ask him what he considers a "fair price" for this material? He is, after all a businessman. If, as you suggest he might be willing to sell, I am sure there are ways and means to raise the required capital - (Even if if I have to go round festivals with a bucket for the next 5 years). I'd be very interested to know if this was a possibility, as I'm sure would a few other people on this thread.

Sincerely,

Jon Loomes


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:26 AM

I would suggest that if people are this interested in the controversies surrounding Celtic Music that they find out about the many, many other instances of the very same things happening to other musicians who don't own the rights to their music.

In the U.S., Green Linnet has the U.S. rights to many artists back catalogues, and refuses to release them.

Why, when this practice is so prevalent, are people so shocked and indignant about this one circumstance? It has been happening to folk and blues musicians in particular, for the better part of this century.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:27 AM

I would consider making an investment in it. What about forming a company and raising capital for the purpose? If we had previously been willing to make donations, then it wouldn't matter if the shares never paid a dividend. Just rescuing the music would be enough for many people.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:27 AM

Oops! Forgot to ask this question: does anyone know if Dick Gaughan signed with Bulmer before or after he was put on the MU blacklist?


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: English Jon
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:32 AM

Pavanne, you've read my mind.

EJ


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Dita (at work)
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 07:55 AM

George,
The Library of Congress was the source of the Grainger cylinders, mainly of Joseph Taylor, which were used for the "Unto Brigg Fair" record. The recordings were remastered by Bill Leader, I don't know if the L of C got a "safety" copy or not. As you say the cylinders are now 90+ years old, so your guess is as good as mind as to what could be retreived at this date.
Dick Gaughan, while still working with Bulmer remastered some of the Leader archive "Fate o' Charlie", and "Ballads and Songs" were two he mentioned by name.
I understand that "Kist o'Gold", has not been released on CD because the masters have deteriorated to such a degree that they are unusable. Remastering from mint vinyl, would seem the only option. Dick's words were "I'd just like to see it out there, I won't see a penny".

For anybody who doesn't know tapes, being magnetic, suffer from what is known as "print through" where some of the recording is passed from a peice of tape, to the tape over and under it in the spool. This results in a "echo" of the next bit of recording. It is most often heard at the start if the recording or on unacommpanied singing. Some of the Leader records had this detectable when the masters were new, so what it will be like after 30+ years untouched, who knows?. This is in addition to physical decay.

Pavane, Peter Bellamy jumped about between recording companies, Transanlantic, Topic, Free Reed, spring to mind. The only track I know for sure on Trailer was a Young Tradition song on the Trailer Sampler, but there may well have been some, ?the Kipling records for instance I'm not sure.

Tyke, Mr Bulmer is not above making copies himself. I know of one group who found that copies of their self produced, vinyl only, album started to appear on cassette after Celtic Music started distributing it.

love, john


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 08:06 AM

I have Peter Bellamy's 'Fox jumped over the Parsons gate' in my collection, I will check who did that. I know he had a fight with Kipling's ?daughter over the rights to use the Kipling poems, but that was a different matter. I do know that he put out some limited edition tapes, presumably to earn some money, and don't suppose he would have done that unless other avenues were blocked. And EJ: when do we start?


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 08:20 AM

Pavane - I can remember Peter Bellamy announcing that as some of his older recordings had become unavailable, he had had to 'bootleg himself'. Whether these were copies of older recordings or newly recorded versions, I cannot say.

And, Guest, If you know of someone who is suffering from Green Linnet's refusal to release back catalogue, why not post the details here? Perhaps a few emails to Green Linnet from Mudcatters may convince them they are missing out on a commercial opportunity.

Les


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 08:30 AM

The tape I know of was newly recorded, 'Fair Annie'. An excellent album, and shame that it had to be so limited (500 copies only). I think I remember reading that he had Dave Swarbrick guesting on Maids of Australia.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: The Badger
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 08:38 AM

Pavanne, Peter's "Barrack-Room Ballads" was recorded on Green Linnet - part of Innisfree Records of Connecticut, and "Keep on Kipling" was on Fellside Recordings of Cumbria.

GUEST - in trying to cure any bad situation you have to start somewhere!

There is one action that we can all take - quite legally and above board - and that is to avoid buying any product which has anything to do with DB, Celtic Music or any other company involved with DB... if you are not sure about a label etc., ask the seller and explain what products you don't want to buy.

This might gain the attention of Mr. Bulmer more effectively than invective.

Badger


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: The Badger
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:01 AM

The Green Linnet site is on www.greenlinnet.com and for a full discography of Peter Bellamy try www.bens.connectfree.co.uk/pb/PBDISC.HTM

Badger


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:53 AM

Sticking to facts, as newly resolved to do . .

Gaughan was connected to Bulmer long before the MU "listing". However he's another artist who's swapped labels a lot; I'm pretty certain (so much for sticking to facts!) the early Gaughan albums were aquired by Bulmer; they certainly weren't made for him.

The Gaughan/Bulmer relationship is a long and complex one; I suggest anyone who want to know more about it contacts Gaughan directly.

Thinking of this, there is an angle which hasn't been mentioned before in this thread. Gaughan is on record saying that, when Bulmer acquired rights in much of this material, it appeared to be the best thing that could happen to it; safeguarding its future. Dick's opinion is that those hopes turned out to be misplaced.

English Jon/Pavane - can I suggest you email me privately? (ghawes at advaoptical dot com)?

And I can't remember who's on Fair Annie, but I THINK I know where our copy is . .

G.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:56 AM

I'm really not interested in detailing lists of artists who have been legally ripped off by record companies, publishers, and copyright owners. I mentioned Green Linnet only as an example of a highly visible "respectable" company in the U.S. which engages in the practice.

While I empathise with people's desire to see rights wronged, I think their time might be best spent educating themselves about these issues before deciding to "take action" on behalf of Nic Jones or anyone else. I would humbly suggest the last thing Nic Jones needs is for a group of well-intentioned Internet users to collectively purchase the masters or the rights from Dave Bulmer.

I refer those who are sincerely interested in this issue to this article at the Musicians Union website, which clearly outlines some of the issues relevant to Nic's case:

www.musiciansunion.org.uk/news/newsw.html

Click on the Dec '97 issue, and go to the article titled "Benefit and Burden" by Horace Trubridge.

This is a good summary of precisely what Malcolm was talking about.

And finally, there are some people who continually claim to be in possession of the so-called "facts" about Dave Bulmer/Nic Jones. Since so few of the contributors to this thread bothered to go to the link I previously gave at Living Tradition, which a number of years ago made the case that there was a lot of myth being passed off as fact, I will just give the direct quote to which I was referring in that editorial:

"I have had a considerable amount of flak after publishing the news item in the last issue about Celtic Music. The main accusation being that by pointing out positive contributions Dave Bulmer may have made to the folk scene I was giving him credibility, 'sitting on the fence', and in danger of actively supporting him.

What I was pointing out was, that the article in the Observer to me appeared to be unbalanced. It seemed to me that there must be another side to the story. My view was that substantive matters could be masked by people making statements that were not true.

Some of what people relate about Celtic Music is clearly heresay and some myths are building up.

Celtic Music has featured in the folk press - mainly in letters to Folk Roots - over a number of years and the company has been in the 'notices' section of The Musicians Union for a long time warning people to seek advice before dealing with them. Some time ago I was faxed a copy of this with a scribbled note on it saying 'What has brother Gaughan got to say about this'. The fact that Dick was working with Dave Bulmer was a surprise to many people and is another factor that led me to the conclusion that there must be more to Dave than is commonly portrayed."

And, I apologize for length here, but I'm also going to quote the much cited, rarely read article by Dick Gaughan posted in uk.music.folk in January 2000. This DG article on the Internet was in response to a query put to him by the editor of Folk Roots (which I also quote below), who appears not to have near the grasp on the "facts" of this case some keep attributing to him.

In <387CE2EF.18B0CA15@froots.off.demon.co.uk> on Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:25:05 +0000, Ian Anderson wrote:

>If you're willing to talk about this in the public domain as it were.

>do you happen to know if the purchase of Trailer/Leader >included the LPs which came out on Transatlantic bearing >the logo "The Leader Tradition". Because those included >both "From The Devil To A Stranger" and Bandoggs., and if >they weren't part of the deal, then where are they now?

I haven't a clue if they were part of the sale or where they might be if they weren't. It was during a period where CM were buying up back catalogue from anyone who decided to call it a day, in itself quite a laudable and smart decision. It is what happened to the stuff later that sets my teeth on edge :(

When the question of CM purchasing the Leader stuff came up, I was asked for my opinion. Given that the alternative was probably purchase by some institution or other from across the pond my view was that it was vital that it remain somewhere in the UK as it was a vital part of our culture(s) and was an irreplacable archive of a unique period of musical exploration and development; it would have been a tragedy were it to be taken elsewhere. Were I asked the same question by anyone today, I would offer the same view.

As I had, at that time, no real reason for doubting that CM was run by honourable people with reasonable motives, my advice was to buy it and make it available on CD, the complete catalogue. To do anything other made no sense whatever to me and the subsequent witholding left me a bit stunned, to be euphimistic, and scratching my head in vain attempts to discover anything remotely resembling logic, of either business or ethical varieties.

The sum of my knowledge regarding the actual content of the purchase was that it comprised the entire Leader and Trailer catalogues which John Zollman had bought, either directly from Bill or from the company Bill had sold it to. (The latter, I suspect.)

To my knowledge (which is probably not complete) it included masters, contracts and existing stock, mainly vinyl - hence, I presume, the obsession with vinyl sales.

Sorry I can't be more helpful in tracing that,

-- DG

As I and Malcolm Douglas have both said, there is always more than one side to a story.

This story has grown to urban legend status within certain circles of the UK folk scene. Everyone knows the story, of course. But not everyone is in agreement about the version promulgated through the Folk Roots letters column, and the uk.music.folk on-line forum, which is now making its way into the Mudcat mythology.

Because Dave Bulmer has never publicly responded to these criticims, doesn't mean he doesn't have what I'm quite sure is a very different version of events than the ones DG gives, the letter writers to Folk Roots give, the Musicians Union gives, etc etc

I'm not saying any one of these versions is more right than the other, because I honestly don't know. Nor, it seems, do those who are promulgating and/or swallowing myth as fact in this thread.

Educate yourselves if you are sincerely concerned about artist rip-offs. And PLEASE don't go around repeating myth as fact.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: English Jon
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 09:59 AM

Pavanne, it seems to me that realistically, the best way to make these materials available once more is to float a company to purchase them from Mr Bulmer, assuming he could be persuaded. Funding it is more of a problem, but not, I would hope, Insurmountable? Perhaps the collection could be sold off a little at a time, prices agreed for just the Jones recordings, Bellamy recordings, etc? That way, Bulmer would see a steady flow of income from a product that can't be generating revenues for him at the moment, and ultimately we could make the entire leader/trailer catalogue available again.

Seems like the most sensible approach to the problem.

EJ


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 10:21 AM

Heavens, she's at it again . .

That long article of Gaughan's is the what I summarised in my previous post; note, in particular: "the subsequent witholding left me a bit stunned, to be euphimistic" and what follows.

Once again, Ms Ryan is seeking to argue by inuendo. Nowhere has she offered one shread of evidence to rebut anything offered as fact in this thread. Once again, she has chosen to ignore specific challenges to the information and views she has chosen to present here.

She writes at great length (a failing to which I, too, must plead guilty) and plausibly. However, her "arguments" are devoid of logic. The only Urban Legend being generated here is the one Janet is trying to promote, namely that there is anything untrue in the summary of the Bulmer/CM situation which I posted at the start of this thread.

At the end of the day you must decide for yourselves between Janet ("Guest") and those who have presented reasoned criticism of Bumer/CM. Who has done most to investigate events? Who is closer to events? Who is more open about their motives? Who has more fully recognised both sides of the story (as opposed to speculating about what another side to the story just might be)? Who has been most ready to respond and develop comments on and criticisms of what they have previously written?

I am sorry if my anger has upset anyone here. I am particularly sorry if this "spat" upsets Nic/Julia Jones. However, this thread isn't actually about Nic and Julia, and it's only Janet's intervention which has given it that narrow focus.

In an earlier message I invited a couple of participants in this thread to contact me directly by email. That related to a specific point, but the email address is there for anyone that wants it. I am prepared to involve myself in this matter openly and in my own name, and to pursue it "off line" with anyone who wishes to do so.

Every injustice is an injustice too many, and Janet's time would be better spent campaigning against the injustices in the US recording industry rather than seeking to defend, from her position of ignorance, the behaviour of CM/Dave Bulmer.

I hope I shall have no need to add anything further to this thread.

Regards to all

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:24 AM

I have more than once tried to promote the idea to the DTI in England that the "benefit and burden" problem discussed in the MU article cited above should be remedied, but to no avail.

Since TOny Blair plays guitar someone persuasive should have a go at him once the public performance/music licensing issue has settle down a bit.

But there could be another angle. The copyright in sound recordings (like any other copyright) depends on a morality view or the bargain between artist and public (depending on where you stand on the US/EEC views on this).

I respectfully submit that once a sound recording has been out of issue for a given period it should enter "domaine publique payante" where it could be commercially copied subject to the payment of royalties to the owner of the copyright in the sound recording and indemnifying him against royalty claims by artists etc.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:33 AM

EJ - any contract would have to be sufficiently watertight to ensure, for example, that if masters are unusable, then price paid would be reduced appropriately. But in principle, yes, and maybe the rights could be guarded against similar action in future.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM

Pavane,

I don't see how such a contract (ie the rights being guarded against future actions) could be binding. The rights have already been lost. If I understand the laws correctly, the original rights no longer exist legally, once they have been transferred to another owner.

The rights regarding the masters are a different matter. One of the fuzzy areas in the CM case is that no one knows what Bulmer actually has in his possession, and what he doesn't, or what rights are his, and what aren't. Or even, what copyrights he originally owned, and what copyrights were transferred to him through his purchase of liquidated assets.

Because he was acting as a liquidator, a recording company, and a distributor, it isn't clear to me (based on all accounts I've read) what of Nic's back catalogue was originally owned by Bulmer/CM, who the original owner of Nic's copyrights were, and what might have been transferred forward to a new company.

You'd spend a lot on solicitors, who in the end might tell you there was no feasible way to get masters or recording or performing rights for any of Nic's material, because of the laws governing what Bulmer does and doesn't have to disclose about what he has and owns.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 12:40 PM

This is all I will say about the "GUEST" obsession here...

There are at least two of us GUESTS contributing to this thread who choose not to identify ourselves.

And a long list of "self-identified" Mudcatters (though I'm guessing "Geoff the Duck" may not be the legal name of the person using it here) have been terrorizing the GUEST users for exercising the option provided by Mudcat to post anonymously.

Previously, the first GUEST stated he/she was not comfortable with threats being made. I seconded that, and of course, the threats and abuse only got worse.

For the record, my decision to sign on as GUEST is due to the small size of the UK folk community (of which I am an active participant), and because of some members' long, unforgiving memories, excellent health, and substantial enough income levels to allow hiring of solicitors to seek revenge on their behalf.

Some responses to my GUEST messages only serve to prove my point.

Many people who contribute to Internet forums do not wish to be readily identifiable for a host of honorable and innocent reasons. Rights of privacy, as well as the right to speak freely without fear of retaliation and retribution (still a serious issue in many parts of the world, including, apparently, this forum), are both reasonable justifications for using pseudonyms for posting anonymously on-line.

This forum allows for the use of pseudoyms and anonymity under the GUEST log-in, rather than requiring an e-mail address. If Mudcat respects those rights to privacy of it's GUESTS, I suggest the Mudcatters respect the forum enough to honor those GUESTS who choose to exercise that option when contributing to Mudcat discussions.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 12:42 PM

Guest the last . .

I think when you say You'd spend a lot on solicitors you hit a rather large nail very squarely . .

and, as I said in the original article (with a couple of additions in bold, added for clarification:

He (Bulmer) is also known (rightly or wrongly) for being rather litigatious (he can afford to be, unlike most if not all of those with whom he is in dispute)

G.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 12:48 PM

Tyke...Old Bean ! I must hold my head up and confess that both "In Search of"....and "Unearthed"...consist almost entirely of bootleg recordings.....!! (apart from a couple of tracks re-purchased from the Beeb) Shall we not bother to release them??!!.....Discuss... Oh....you already are ! Love R xx


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:00 PM

No idea how that message got sent twice . . but as this thread now appears it should have been addressed to "guest the last but one" . .

And sorry, Guest the last, but I don't see any seriously-intended threat in here, but so far as I know registering as a Mudcat member doesn't make any of your details available to anyone . . and, of course, you can always make the thread more intelligible by using some form of identifier along with Guest. But then again much of the rest of your contribution here made only minimal sense , except in the just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get me sense. However, if you genuinely feel intimidated from presenting your true opinions, under your own (or even an assumed) name, here or elswhere within the folk world then I am very sincerely sorry.

Regards,

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:15 PM

GeorgeH,

I appreciate your belief that you were "factually" summarising what you have labelled the "Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer Saga" here.

However, I'd like to point out that the source of information to which I have been referring was not your original post to this thread, but the Living Tradition editorial. Which also makes reference to the Dick Gaughan message you attempted to "summarise" here. The Living Tradition editorial states:

"Dick Gaughan made that very point in a newsgroup forum on the internet."

Apparently you are active in that forum as well. However, as I stated earlier, Folk Roots and the UK folk newsgroup are not the only sources of information on this matter.

It may well help lower the levels of animosity in this thread if you would temper your remarks, and your insistence that "facts" which you summarised here are the one, only, true version of events and circumstances surrounding Celtic Music and Dave Bulmer.

The facts you cite have been greatly distorted over the years that this issue has been discussed, both on and off line, and in the UK music press (which last time I checked, included Living Tradition).


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:23 PM

GeorgeH,

I appreciate your belief that you were "factually" summarising what you have labelled the "Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer Saga" here.

However, I'd like to point out that the source of information to which I have been referring was not your original post to this thread, but the Living Tradition editorial. Which also makes reference to the Dick Gaughan message you attempted to summarise here. The Living Tradition editorial states:

"Dick Gaughan made that very point in a newsgroup forum on the internet."

Upon reading that Living Tradition editorial on-line, I simply did a Google search with "Dave Bulmer" as key words brings DG's message up.

It may well help lower the levels of animosity in this thread if you would temper your remarks, and your insistence that your "facts" on this matter are more true and reliable than others.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:25 PM

True, Guest but I don't see any facts coming from anywhere else. If Dave Bulmer has got a case to make, let him make it. Perhaps he thinks that it's none of our business, and he's entitled to think that if he wants, but if that is so it shows rather a cavilier attitude to a group of people whao are (or would be) his customers.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:26 PM

Oops!

Apparently GeorgeH, we both need to get back to work, and stop posting duplicate messages!


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 01:38 PM

Les from Hull,

Actually, what you are saying about a paucity of facts beyond those presented here is true.

What is necessary to know the facts is some considerable, tedious research. It may be possible to find out who originally owned masters, contracts, and copyrights (contracts are sold along with product and copyright in these liquidator deals)now presumed to be owned by Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer, et al.

It may be possible to find out if and when anyone ever filed for remedies and/or breaches, that sort of thing.

And someone could actually try to interview Dave Bulmer about it without being antagonistic and hostile.

I think everyone agrees it would be nice to know the truth. But getting at the truth is usually a lot more work than most people are willing to go through to find it.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 02:22 PM

Guest,

Elsewhere in this thread I indicated - in general terms - the scope of my enquiries which lead me to attest that the summary I offered is factually accurate.

I am not sure in what sense you feel the LT piece (which, as you acknowledge, is a number of years old) contradicts what I wrote. Certainly I don't see any contradiction between what I wrote and the DG piece you included.

Perhaps that's just me being stupid. Nevertheless, if you'd care to indicate what the accuracies are in my original article we'd be able to make some progress. To date I still don't see that you've brought either any new facts, or any new viewpoint, to this consideration. All you have done is questioned the accuracy of my account, without providing any coherent basis for doing so.

As you say, getting at the truth can be hard work. Accusing others of not presenting the truth is, however, trivially easy, as you/GUEST has indicated.

Of course my account is not the whole truth; that's generally unattainable, and probably personal! More particularly, I chose to omit all those aspects of which I was not entirely certain, and others which I felt were not particularly significant. Plus, of course, information which I am simply not free to publish.

And once again, may I ask what your motives are for suggesting my account is untruthful, when you appear to have no evidence to support that assertion?

Regards

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 02:54 PM

Fair enough GeorgeH,

Your opening statement in this thread is as follows:

"Mr Bulmer is clearly an exception to the rule that "no-one ever makes a fortune from Folk Music in the UK".

What evidence have you presented here that Mr. Bulmer is a wealthy man, and that he made a fortune from folk music in the UK?

Sentence #2 of your post says:

"He is also known for being rather litigatious (he can afford to be, unlike most if not all of those with whom he is in dispute). "

What evidence have you presented here that Mr. Bulmer is litigous? What evidence do you offer to support your "fact" that Mr. Bulmer has more money than those parties with whom he is in litigation?

GeorgeH, it seems to me that you are the most guilty sycophant here. You are clearly using the hearsay referred to in the Living Tradition editorial, and claiming that hearsay as fact.

I initially tried to point out, very politely, that the "facts" you were presenting were nothing of the sort--just hearsay and your personal beliefs about a man you clearly have nothing but contempt for, if your remarks about him here are anything to judge by.

The response to my suggestion from both you and Ralphie were both swift, and negative. Methinks you both doth protest too much.

You also claimed, without providing any evidence, that:

"Over the years, he has purchased the rights to an enormous quantity of the "back catalogue" of the British Folk Revival,"

You aren't distinguishing between what he bought and didn't buy, as a liquidator. That is a crucial piece of information. DG has said:

The sum of my knowledge regarding the actual content of the purchase was that it comprised the entire Leader and Trailer catalogues which John Zollman had bought, either directly from Bill or from the company Bill had sold it to. (The latter, I suspect.)

Now, I'm no solicitor, but if I understand the law correctly, Bulmer MAY NOT own rights to the Leader catalogue. If Bill Leader sold the masters, contracts and copyrights to John Zollman or another company previous to him, then those rights may well be no longer in the hands of the entity which owns and possesses the masters.

Capiche? Just because Dave Bulmer has the Leader, et al catalogue masters, doesn't mean he "owns the rights" to recording and performance of them.

It could just be that Dave Bulmer knows these laws better than most musicians, music journalists, and punters who, based upon hearsay (and even what DG is saying is hearsay, I might add), have decided that he has rights and masters he actually doesn't have, and possibly never did.

I could go on like this line by line with your message, but I really don't think any of us needs to go there.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Max in Louth
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 03:15 PM

You must try to understand that Bulmer is a maniac collector of "things". If you.ve ever been toi Harrogate to his works , or to any of his other enterprises you will see that they are full of what is only realy described as "junk". He cant resist it. The works are like Steptoes Yard. The point I'm making is that in regard to copyrights, he HAS to own them. Then nobody else can own them. It's like those who buy stolen Old Master paintings - they cant do anything with them , but THEY OWN THEM. Its nearly a sexual gratification thing. Somnebody questioned the sanity of Bulmer - you probably all must realise that he's pretty near the dividing line between genious and insane. He is a manipulator who has an insane wish to "see the big picture" and then acquire it.

Why not pay a visit to North Works in Harrogate and view with wide eyed abandon the piles of redundant machinery, records, books et al.

Regrettably for all of us while he's got the tapes we will never see them (or hear them). They are HIS, all HIS.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Alec/Ramsey/I.O.M.
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 03:21 PM

The man's a nutter! Perhaps MAFF could cull him.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 03:28 PM

So much for well reasoned discourse and facts.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: marty D
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 05:15 PM

This has been possibly the most fascinating thread I've seen in Mudcat over the last year and a half. I hope you'll excuse my input here as I'm neither British nor a recording artist (and never likely to be either) but I have some thoughts.

There seems to be a desire on some people's part that an obvious businessman should become part of the 'folk' and 'do the right thing'. How often does that really happen? There have been umpteen cases in America where musicians have had to use incredibly nasty tactics themselves to get a fair shake. Remember John Fogarty's battle with his Record Company? He even slandered the owner in one of his songs "Zantz Can't Dance". People who get into music for profit often play hardball, both owners and artists. Some probably really enjoy it. The higher the stakes, the more fun, because there can be millions at stake.

Obviously that isn't the case here. The issues seem to be "important" traditional music, and perhaps a very few thousand pounds. It sounds like a few of those musicians could REALLY use that money, or at least put their recorded music to good use again, to help them earn a living. My guess is that they earn very little at best.

Have any of the artists 'banded together' so that they COULD hire a lawyer, or is this Bulmer fellow's position simply 'airtight'? If he's on solid ground then the artists are left with very few options OTHER than impassioned discussions like this. When this discussion is over, will any of the artists be better off?

It strikes me as the best alternatives left to the artists might be some form of guerilla tactics. Why not ask (over the net) if any fans have 'clean' copies of the music on record, that they'd be willing to loan in order to make a 'new master'? Sure, the sound quality won't be absolutely first class, but with the equipment available today, it'll be close, and isn't the 'content' the most important thing with this kind of music? Yes, it would be illegal, but perhaps it would encourage this man into some form of dialogue that might produce a resolution BEFORE litigation.

Simply ASKING a businessman to 'have a heart' when that might mean they'll lose money, isn't going to work. Even in folk music.

marty


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 06:41 PM

Dave failed to ever produce a contract which Peter (Bellamy) was prepared to sign. He produced the verbally agreed album and then Peter found that little or no publicity was forthcoming and even had a problem getting the vinyl from Bulmer to sell himself. When he eventually got the records, the sleeves were his but the discs were Kipper Family! and had to be returned. Having said that Dave has released tracks to Neil Wayne for the recent Wake The Vaulted Echoes album for which I am grateful. However Peter coined the expression that CM actually stood for Clandestine Music which is far more appropriate than celit Music and I think should pass into common usage as it is is more appropriate. Jenny Bellamy


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 06:48 PM

MartyD,

I don't know that anything can be done for what has already transpired.

My idea of what is the best case for the future, is to get the UK "Benefit and Burden" laws related to copyrights changed. Until that happens, we risk losing some potentially valuable archive material. While some of the material from the British Folk Revival is certainly of cultural value to the folk community, I don't think that is the main beef people have.

Rather, people are upset about artists losing the rights to their works. As well we should be! It isn't just about the money, as you noted. It also is about control over one's creative works.

As to the "national treasure" argument, I'm not convinced. There is very little of the British Folk Revival that isn't available from a lot of different sources that can be archived. What looks like national treasure, will clearly be seen as national trash by many others. This isn't really something for the folk community to decide on it's own. Nor is it likely to be known what stands the test of time until, well...time passes.

While there aren't millions of copies of folk revival recordings, there certainly are enough to get safety copies into archives, both public and private. Its always best to have masters, of course. But we don't always have that luxury.

There is concern, however, about some older masters which still exist, and the recordings don't. I really have not idea how many are out there, and I'm guessing no one else does either. There are the types of things that miraculously turn up in mint condition from granny's garden shed, etc. And then there is what is rumoured to be in existence in someone or other's private collections or possession.

But again, no one seems to know exactly what Bulmer has, and what might be duplication of material already in other archives. While Dick Gaughan is obviously concerned that the material only be archived in the UK (ie the "national treasure" argument), I for one find that kind of pious nationalism to be self-defeating in instances like this--to me, what matters is what needs preserving get preserved. If America, or Germany, or Pakistan end up being the place the stuff gets safely ensconced in a collection, I don't care who has it, so long as there is reasonable access to the archived material.

Re the idea of artists vs record companies, publishers, and copyright owners. I think artists need to educate themselves about the law. I also think that musicians need to join ranks with other freelancers and organize to get the laws changed. No one is going to do it for us, and I really do believe it's as simple (and difficult) as that. Unless and until that happens, I'm afraid there doesn't seem to be much legal recourse for any of us.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 08:46 PM

GUEST the last- so, in a nutshell, you are saying that you know no more than anyone else about this matter, and while doing so, contrive to be offensive and disparaging about named individuals and whole sections of the community.

Jenny, thank you for your inside information. :0)

Noreen


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Tyke
Date: 04 Jul 01 - 11:09 PM

Re the deterioration of magnetic tape! Yes due to the fact that the earth has a magnetic field and tapes will deteriorate. Even if you put them in grannies shed! The only sound source that is permanent is Chromatic Black and white film sound track. Video taped television programmes will all so deteriorate the only way to preserve these and sound tracks in general is to transfer them on to Chromatic Film. In the case of video this involves bar code to digitally preserve both sound and vision. This is great as it probably means that I will be able to buy Chromatic Black and White 35mm film for my camera for a few more years.

This is likely to be an, expensive, exercise which will benefit future generations. Just re releasing albums will only cause the further deterioration of the magnetic masters if they are still in existence (they may have already been recycled). Could the old equipment that it has been reported here that Dave Bullmer has in his possession be what is needed. Seems to me that for all his alleged faults Dave may have made a major contribution to the preservation of "Folk" music. It follows that if Dave Bullmer has or had been producing copies of these Albums you could now be accusing his company of destroying a unique heritage.

Oh I looked at the web site as suggested! Interesting! I cannot say I was surprised! I seem to remember a joke about God and the Devil having an argument. God threatens to sue the Devil and take him to court and the Devil just laughs. God asks the Devil why he is laughing! The Devil say's and just were are you going to find a solicitor in Heaven!

Just in case you missed my point in my last posting. If you are offered a record deal then you should read the contract and let your solicitor look at it. I would advise you to join the Musicians Union and seek their advice regarding all contracts. As for the individual dealings that artists have had with Celtic Music. I see little point in openly discussing these issues. Dave Bullmer has by his silence taken legal advise or he has the good sense to keep his mouth shut. He is also behaving in a professional manner by not criticising other people publicly. By joining the Musicians Union you would be clubbing together with other artists to take legal advise/action against anyone who was ripping you off. But it is no use joining the MU (or any other Union) after the event. Should there be a case to answer, and win, then I would have thought that the MU would have already acted against Celtic Music.

Oh and for anyone thinking of going into business here is a piece of free advice. Business and Friendship do not mix. I have a feeling that some of the ill feeling against Dave is due to Artists putting there original trust in Dave because they felt that he was a friend. Celtic Music acts as record dealer and distributor not a record company that is there to promote them. I am of the opinion that to boycott of Celtic Music would hurt the artists as much or more than Dave Bullmer. Especially if said artists are already under contract to Celtic Music it maybe quite some time before there contracts run out and they are free to produce their own albums on their own labels again. George Clarke (Tyke)


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Max in Louth
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 04:12 AM

The MU are in an invidious position in that Mr Bulmer is also a member! However, they are in three actions against CM at present, and Mr B and his company is, of course, on the MU "Notices". Notices is their polite way of saying "blacklist". Deal with CM/Bulmer therefore, at your peril.

As for Mr B not discussing these matters, he simply couldn't give a damn.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 05:27 AM

This has become circular . . I should have taken Ralphie's advice and backed out yesterday . .

Guest/Janet, I already pointed out that I couldn't substantiate the "litigations" claim . . . And I notice you continue to avoid answering questions yourself . . If you seriously want answers to the points you raise then email me.

I believe what I wrote is fair and accurate. I see no evidence to contradict that, merely speculation presented as fact . .

If anyone feels anything I've said to be unfair, untrue, inaccurate or contradicted by anything else offered here and they want a response then please contact me by email. That applies to you, too, Janet.

But let me end on a positive note - Bulmer's release of the Mick Tems originals is a generous act, and we should all unconditionally applaud it as such.

Aside from Mudcat personal messages I can be reached at ghawesatadvaopticaldotcom.

"Over and out"

G.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Eluned
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 05:28 AM

This discussion continues to be fascinating.
The facts that folks have reported on law, the deterioration and preservation of masters ( well, _I_ didn't know that using the masters to make albums added to their decay!), one or two well-considered analysis of Bulmer's personality (I think the description of his compulsive collecting is fascinating, and would explain a lot of his behaviors), the MU, and the actual situation have all been very interesting.
I disagree with GUEST that we are calling jihad, or overly "down on" the man - some folks have strong negative feelings about him, but have for the most part restrained themselves. Many level-headed folks have led the discussion to examining the parts of the issue, so that we know many of the different factors in this situation.
I do agree with GUEST that what constitutes a "National Treasure" is largely a matter of viewpoint; as an academic I instinctively shudder at the thought of such a large loss of recordings, but to some folks this doesn't matter. Hard to understand, but, there it is.
However, I am sure that some of those whose concern is the preservation of history and national identity _would_ care, and those, I believe, are the folks who determine what is a "National Treasure". Is this the case, or am I way off base?
Unfortunately, since they don't know what-all he has, and cannot hear them, and also since he does seem to have ownership, they're not likely to address this issue.

Eluned


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 09:14 AM

As Tyke/George Clarke points out, there are fairly complex issues regarding reproduction from old masters, as well as the viability of releasing audio recordings from those sources.

I'd also agree with him that it is Bulmer who has shown the most integrity by not publicly criticising others, whether for legal self-preservation or otherwise. He has been unfairly villified in some circles (which I originally tried to point out here), and as Pete pointed out in his editorial, the hearsay and half truths being promulgated as "fact" in certain circles seems to have reached epic myth levels in the UK folk community.

There rarely is anything to be gained by airing such personal or professional grievances in public. If there was something to be gained, then parties with personal grievances against Bulmer--or even those who are seeking legal remedies from him--would have won some concessions from Bulmer by now.

Eluned's remarks about the "national treasure" issues are astute. I didn't mean to sound as if I so easily dismiss those who do have an interest in preserving history and national identity. I honestly don't share their conviction.

My preservation concerns run more along the lines of what is of of musical value which transcends cultural boundaries and national borders. Because I don't share the convictions and values of the cultural and national preservationists, I wouldn't be a person who could speak adequately to their concerns.

Most important, I think, is to realize that certain people and institutions look to preserve music for it's cultural/national value, while others will look to preserve it for it's music value to the world community. Those two communities won't always agree what is of value, and what isn't.

British and American folk music traditions are the best, most extensively documented folk music traditions in the world. At some point, I think we need to look at the importance of other music traditions, particularly those which are not well documented or documented at all, especially since the rapid spread of our English speaking cultural homogeneity is one of the main causes of half the world's 6,800 remaining languages now being spoken by fewer than 2,500 people. And nearly all of the music traditions native to those languages will disappear without a trace.

It is estimated that in the 15th century, approximately 15,000 languages were spoken. Since then, it is estimated that 4,000-9,000 languages have been wiped out due to war, genocide, legal and other bans by colonial forces, and assimilation. The 15 most common languages in the world are now spoken by nearly half the planets inhabitants, and the top 100 languages spoken by 90% of the world population. My main source for these statistics, if people are curious about these things, is a fairly new book called "Vanishing Voices: The Extinction of the World's Languages"--don't have it to hand right now to give the author's name, but as I recall, it is published by Oxford University Press.

That is a lot of folk music rooted in specific languages, which has already disappeared without a trace. Some anthropologists are beginning to view the loss of diverse linguistic knowledge with the loss of biodiversity and habitat. A tremendous amount of localized knowledge, which is so central to survival, is lost when a language dies. So I'm more concerned with preservation of music of value on that level, than I am of getting a few Leader wax cylinders released to what would likely be a very small audience in the UK and US.

Preservation resources being as limited as they are, archivists and collectors are always having to set priorities and make decisions about what they will make available to the public, and what they will leave in a box/storage. Dave Bulmer, by virtue of what he has acquired, is setting those priorities and making those decisions. But if folks would take a deep breath, and try and get a grasp on the bigger picture--ie beyond what I view as a sanctimonious "our culture, our national heritage first" mindset, and spend time, energy, and limited resources preserving music traditions we otherwise will lose, we might make a difference that really matters to future generations.

There are some people who have chosen to publicly take Bulmer to task for what he has chosen to release, and what he has left in a box. There are also some who have suggested we should still be grateful for what Bulmer has done by purchasing some valuable liquidated assets of the British Folk Revival, which otherwise may well have been lost or destroyed. I am squarely in the latter group.

I certainly understand and empathise with Nic Jones' circumstances regarding his back catalogue, and inability to collect royalties, particularly because of his disability. But what happened to Nic has also happened to many musicians who made choices a long time ago to sign on the dotted line, and not make financial and legal plans for securing the rights to their masters and royalty rights. As someone else pointed out, there isn't much in the way of a financial safety net for musicians involved in industrial accidents, making Nic's case even more of a tragedy. The suggestions that musicians get involved with MU, both to protect their rights and avail of the pension, insurance and other benefits, is very sound advice. Nic's case is a classic example of the importance of that to other musicians.

Even if Bulmer hasn't done anything with some materials he has collected, and which there appears to be a commercial market for (ie Nic Jones' and Leaders' back catalogues), as Tyke/George Clarke has pointed out, it might take a considerable amount of money to do so. Bulmer has the right to set his priorities, as both a collector of valuable recordings and archivable materials, and as a businessman. Others have a right to disagree, and jump on the let's publicly bash Bulmer bandwagon.

And Eluned, thanks for pointing out this thread has been of some value. I don't think we'd have gotten there if it had just continued on as another of the many "let's blast Bulmer" threads that keeps appearing with regularity in Internet folk forums. I'd like to say thanks too, to Malcolm Douglas, Tyke/George Clarke, and Jenny Bellamy, for contributing what they know, which has added to our body of knowledge and understanding of these complex, but fascinating issues.

I've enjoyed the time discussing them here as a guest of Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 01 - 11:22 AM

Oops! I meant to thank Richard Bridge for his contributions as well. Thanks for the suggestions about the "Benefit and Burden" laws!


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 03:49 AM

A slight diversion regarding techy stuff and tapes
Good old analogue tape is surprisingly durable, I have some tapes from the mid 50's which still sound fine
The problems arise from other causes. Firstly, the manufacturing quality of the actual tapes sometimes left a lot to be desired, there was one particular brand, that could have doubled as pretty fine sandpaper, thus requiring a change of tape heads every 100 hours or so!
Another type in the 1970's would quite happily shed its oxide all over your carpet, making the resulting playback rather quiet...The only solution to this would be a long-winded process of baking and cooling (don't try this at home people!)
Print-through has been mentioned, normally countered by storing the tape on the spool backwards....All well and good, until a well known Radio station happily played 20 Minutes of a certain Rock Stars latus opus....you guessed it!!....backwards.
It was only when said "RS" phoned in that anybody noticed.
I hope the above has returned this ever-lenghthening thread to some form of normality...My many thanks to all who have contributed. I've certainly learned a lot.
No doubt the whole subject will run and run. Tracklist for "Unearthed" will follow shortly Peace Ralphie


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 04:03 AM

Oh...and as a PS
Any MC Historians out there know how long the longest thread is/was?
Did anybody make a jumper out of it? Ralphie


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Max in Louth
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 04:05 AM

I recognise some of the phrases used in the item timed at 9.14 on 5h July. Be very cautious - you probably realsie who is the author!

Unlike most UK record companies, Bulmer has VERY low overhead and production costs. He could very easily, and far cheapere than more most, produce Compact Discs, AND vinyl. He has CD replication machinery in Harrogate, he has cassette equipment there also, and has a large vinyl record factory in London. He also has label and other printing machines - not forgetting that he has several record mastering (disc cutting) lathes. In short whereas for most it costs pounds, for Bulmer it costs relative pence. Add the virtually free costs of his legal services (from a Mr N Sharpley - also based in Louth although here with a very tarnished image)Bulmer IS a fat cat who'se got the cream at the expense of a music genre he claims to love.

Musicians are generally trusting souls who latch on to people like Bulmer who have the gift of the gab - who say all the right things at the right time. Don't blame them for confusing friendship for business. Time after time musicians have been duped and who bvetter to dupe a musician than another musician particularly when he offer such goodies that Bulmer. It's simple villainy and theft make no mistake and the sooner interested contributors to this thread realise those facts, the sooner people like Bulmer and his "lawyer" are turned out to where they belong.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 04:06 AM

We had problems at one site in the 1970's with computer tapes and 'stiction', in that some brands of tape were incompatible with some tape deck heads. The decks were going backwards and forwards frantically trying to reread blocks of data. (I think the brand name had 'Minnesota' in it somewhere!) Not that the tapes were bad, just not compatible with the particular drives. And they had bought thousands of the things! I don't know if this problem occurs with audio tape.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 04:08 AM

The Law and Morality have rarely been on the same side


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 04:14 AM

Pav
I've got the multi tracks for my first album, and no machine to play them on....Go to the back, all of you who said good!!
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: pavane
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 04:21 AM

:-(


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 07:23 AM

Is that the Crows one?

Anyone want a scanned image of Ralpie the Younger from the cover . . .

Cheers!

G.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 08:28 AM

Good Grief!


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 02:15 PM

Fascinating thread. There are now two others on the "cat" directly directly influenced by this one, with some personal experiences to go along with the ones here.

"Stiffed" by Record Company

"Sign on the Dotted line, kid"

This one's gettin' hard to load. Anyone want to start part two? (I won't 'cause it's mostly Brit folks discussing this, and they're the ones who know if it's run it's course or not.)

Rick


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 07:21 PM

If I may summarise before this thread closes: 1) Bulmer is within his legal rights to do what he is doing. 2) He may or may not hold recorded "treasures" depending on your view point. 3) Musicians should check legal advise before signing with any recording company. 4) Nic Jones has been financially affected by Dave Bulmer's choice not to re-release old recordings held by himself. 5) Some musicians (though not all) have been satisfied with their treatment by Dave Bulmer (Celtic Music). 6) George Hawes was told to butt out but didn't.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,the latter
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 07:33 PM

Hey Rick,

I've jumped to a new related thread too, titled:

"Copyright Infringements"

The above GUEST message "thread summary" is not mine.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 01:18 AM

Good to hear that a couple of sub-threads (?) have started in response to this one.
As I've said previously, I've learnt a lot from all of this, particularly, that people out there really care.!
When a topic (no pun!) like this comes along, tempers are naturally going to become a bit frayed (inc mine...mea culpa)
But I think we managed to keep it just the right side of Mud-slinging, and for that....many thanks to you all...(and I mean ALL!!)
I'm off to the studio today, to master CD1 of Nics new double epic, wish me luck.
It's ironic...all you good people are begging to hear this stuff, and I'm going...."Oh No..not b****y Jones again!
I'll revive the Double CD thread when I have all the relevant details, until then...."If you're ever passing...please do!!"
Cheers Ralphie xx


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Max in Louth
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 01:21 AM


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Max in Louth
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 01:25 AM

Oops, pressed the wrong key last time hence the empty message above. This is a quick note to Ralphie to remember that whatever he does with the new CD masters, don't be a total wally and sign them with CM! I mention it because in the record business lightning does seem to strike twice!! Remember the old song, The devil Got All the Good Music.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 01:26 AM

Yes Max?
You wanted something??!! R


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 01:29 AM

Max...fear not Old Bean!
"Unearthed" will be released Solely by Mollie Music...run By Julia Jones!!
We're not THAT dumb! Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Max
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 01:30 AM

Nope, only that good sense should prevail, and that Nic has better luck and is dealt a better hand than he has had with Mr Bulmer and his "lawyer".


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 02:00 AM

Max..He will be.....nobody messes with Mrs Jones!!
(apropos of nothing...why do I think I know who you are??)
R


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 05:02 AM

GUESTS, Tyke et al

To paint DB as a heroic preserver of national heritage, doing his bit by not playing his master tapes (since that would damage them) is ludicrous.

First, if you never play the tape, and leave it on the spool until it crumbles into dust, it has not preserved anything. It is only in playing the tape and re-embodying the music on it, that the preservation attains any purpose.

Second, to release an album to the public, if it was recorded in the 1960s or 1970s and is thus not in truly brittle shape (like cylinders or old 78s) you generally only absolutely NEED to play the tape once in a studio to get a digital dub of it. Then all your work can be done from the dub if necessary. So by playing the master once he could get it to the public AND preserve it in digital form. Not bad for the amount of deterioration one play-through will cause. Indeed, if one play-through does destroy the tape then it might as well BE destroyed, since the music on it was essentially unrecoverable already.

BTW, there is one organization seriously committed to the preservation of a national folk music archive that also runs a record label: smithsonian folkways. And ANY recording in their catalog is available on CD at any time precisely because they've done digital dubs of most of the catalog. That's what a preservationist label would do, not fret over master tapes to the extent of never playing them.

As to the suggestion that DB doesn't REALLY own the rights and so can't release the material; then why wouldn't he just say so? And what about the ones he HAS released?

What about the Good Businessman argument? I can't see how he's making anything off a bunch of tapes in a storehouse. He's not selling vinyl either. Seems buying this catalog was a total loss. And as for the idea that business and friends don't mix, that's a crock, too. Many people don't f*ck their friends over when doing business with them. It's not compulsory, you know!

What about the argument that anyone who's sung a Cyril Tawney song in a singaround and not paid royalties is doing the same thing as Dave Bulmer? Ludicrous. The point is SUPPORT THE ARTISTS. Go to gigs and buy albums. When you can buy the albums from the performers. If you feel worried, ask their permission to sing their songs in singarounds. They will say yes, end of trumped-up moral dilemma.

Now, this does not mean DB is a monster, but some of the noble motives being ascribed to him by GUEST(S) are simply not rational. Clearly he has reasons for not releasing material, and clearly he would rather see poor musicians remain poor than do anything about it. He's selfish, then. As many have said, there's not much we can do about it. Still, my "winning the lottery" dream is to buy the rights from DB and redistribute them to the artists. Not good business, I know. But I'd sure love to hear those albums again.

Steve


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Tyke
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:42 AM

winick/Steve, Please read my thread again I know that I'm DYSLEXIC but it seems you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. However the earth is magnetic and tape will deteriorate regardless of weather you make copies or not is true! I did say that! However this is speculation on how many master tapes are still in existence. I fear that many will have been recycled I'm not just talking Nick Jones here. Put yourself in the place of a record/distribution company. If people think you have valuable master tapes in your possession your company will appear to be worth more. Would you want people to know that you had recycled/recorded over irreplaceable material. You see at the time you did not know that Two Artists mentioned in this thread would not be able to re-record there work due to one tragic accident and one suicide. Your best bet is to keep quite and let other speculate do you not think?

My main point is that you should not confuses business and friendship you should seek legal advise before signing any contract's. Even if the contract is coming from someone who is purporting friendship towards you in this thread. Oh and just in case you or anyone feels insulted at my last remark! The answer is that if they were true friends they would have already insisted that their friend did seek independent legal advise before making any contractual commitment. If you do not you will loose yourself a lots of friends which it is seems obvious that Dave Bullmer & Co have already done.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 08:55 AM

If I understand UK law correctly, once the original copyright is sold to a second party, the second party is not legally required to disclose any information regarding said copyright, for the purpose of collection of royalties, to seek redress, etc.

Which is an abomination, of course, but there you have it.

So, since Bulmer isn't legally required to disclose what he does or doesn't have, any discussion of what actually exists is mere conjecture. No one, including Dick Gaughan, has come forward and said "On June 15, 2001, I was in the presence of Dave Bulmer, and he played Nic Jones' masters which were in "X" condition."

The point is, nobody knows what Bulmer has, and Bulmer ain't talkin'. Hasn't won friends and influential people to his side, but it is the reality of the current situation.

For some reason, after many years of this go-round, some still think that talking about this publicly will change the current reality.

Not everyone agrees with that assessment, or even that repeated attempts to publicly villify and ostracize Bulmer will create an ending which will have justified the means.

To say that those of us in the latter camp love Bulmer, and wish to act as his defenders, is to miss the point entirely.

I'm not talking about Bulmer here. I'm talking about the people who hate Bulmer, and who choose to keep the jihad going to suit their petty vindictive natures.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 01:05 PM

....gettin hard to load....wanta hear more.....fadin' fast.... continue it .....here...gasp..gasp...cluck

gasp...expired...gurgle


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: The Badger
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:48 PM

It is amazing that the UNKNOWN GUEST persist in the use of JIHAD.

OK - if that is the case let all mudcatters - not including unknown guests of little value - ostracise Bulmer and all his works. If a Jihad is called for by unknown guests then let it be so.

The word should go round - do not buy from, do not play with in a band, do not allow intpo a session a DB.

That would seem to be the logical result from their flim flamming.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: The Badger
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 09:52 PM

PS: if (alledgidly) petty vindictiveness it be , at least I put a name to the originator.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 12:42 AM

Oops. Sorry, Tyke, if I misrepresented your ideas!

I read the paragraph that states:

"Just re releasing albums will only cause the further deterioration of the magnetic masters if they are still in existence (they may have already been recycled). Could the old equipment that it has been reported here that Dave Bullmer has in his possession be what is needed. Seems to me that for all his alleged faults Dave may have made a major contribution to the preservation of "Folk" music. It follows that if Dave Bullmer has or had been producing copies of these Albums you could now be accusing his company of destroying a unique heritage."

I took that to be a defense of Bulmer on the grounds that he was attempting to preserve the music by not playing the tapes. Maybe I was wrong!

My points were first, that you've got to play the tapes at some point or, as you say, the tapes will deteriorate and become unplayable. So in fact by NOT producing any copies of the tapes he has, Bulmer is destroying a unique heritage. Playing them once to get a digital dub off them is therefore far preferable to letting them sit. If he digitally mastered them, or as you suggest, put them on chromatic Black and white film sound track, he might get points as a preservationist. Any evidence whether he's done that?

My second point was, once you have taken the preservationist step of making a digital or film copy, re releasing albums off the digital masters won't hurt the analog master tape any more. So re-releasing albums from fresh digital masters CAN be part of a preservation project, and indeed help to fund that project, as it does at the Smithsonian.

As for my comments on business and friendship, you're right of course. Having clearly defined contracts saves friendships by getting everyone's intentions and expectations in the open. I also took that to be a defense of DB on the grounds that he's free to do what he wants since there are no contracts. Obviously, I was wrong there!

By the way (and this refers to GUEST, not tyke), those who choose to label criticism of Dave Bulmer a Jihad run the risk of offending people who have been real victims of a real Jihad, some of whom I know. It's like bandying about terms like "folk Nazi": it's convenient shorthand, but it's also in rather poor taste.

And, hey, I don't mean that in a vindictive way!

Steve


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Max
Date: 08 Jul 01 - 03:42 AM

Bulmer may be (?) a bovine, obnoxious, dangerous, litigeous, insensitive con "artiste" but stupid he is not. His library of copyrights will have been preserved long before now on DAT or even on CDR. As I said in an earlier thread note he is a compulsive collector/hoarder and he gets his rocks off on possession. Remember they're HIS all HIS and you aint gonna see 'em or hear 'em. He, he.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 08:52 AM

'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Pt 2 (click)


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Jul 01 - 07:41 PM

Guest (un-named)

I hope you are not the person of the same name who is posting offensive remarks about Liz the Squeak in all sorts of threads, but if you persist in using the same unidentification, we will have to presume that you are.


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 07:07 PM

Just a quick re-fresh to see if "Guest" might re-appear?
In a funny sort of way I miss him/her.....And if you are out there....If you're ever passing.......please do regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Fed up
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 08:22 AM

Ralphie,

Why is it you'd like GUEST to reappear? To rekindle the flames? Looks to me like all you are looking for is a fight.

Sore loser, all that.

Dignified, reasonable people don't behave like that.

All


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 09:19 AM

Hey, Fed Up, what's Ralphie supposed to have lost at?

He's emerged with dignity intact, and as far as I can see no significant criticism of him or his actions.

If you choose to align Ralphie with my criticisms of Bumer/CM then it remains the case that not a scrap of evidence has been offered to refute anything I said.

As for the suggestion that Ralphie's not a reasonable person, well, that merely demonstrates the depth of your ignorance.

Me, I don't claim to be reasonable . . I'm just an evil-tempered old git . .

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Fed up
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 09:49 AM

Attempting to usse "I'm just an evil-tempered old git" as a defense for spleen venting against those who disagree with you, and justification for dysfunctional rage issues being carried into Internet discussion forums, is bad manners, bad netiquette, and unacceptably bad behavior.

I suggest if you have this serious a problem with anger and rage, you seek some professional help. And I don't say that mockingly, but very seriously and genuinely.

All


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 01:38 PM

Guest, old girl, if you think I have even the least concern what you think you are sadly mistaken. And, like so many anonymous hate-mail writers, I suspect you couldn't be genuine if your happiness depended on it.

I have committed no breach of manners, netiquette or acceptable behaviour, nor do I have anything to apologise for, nor is any part of my actions "dysfunctional".

That said, I do recognise Ralphie as a much gentler soul than myself. Your mean-spirited and unjustified attack on him is an indication of precisely why you deserve to be treated with the most utter contempt.

Have a good weekend.

George


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Ralphie
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 06:15 PM

George...Thanks , but, I can fight my own battles if I need to...
Guest.....(add various names at this point)
My only point in posting my feelings about missing you, was that I was genuinely worried about you. I didn't realise that you were busy posting messages on other sites elsewhere.
You do seem to have been a busy little beaver, don't you?
Ah well, I'll let you carry on winding everybody else up...You are particularly good at it, I must say
Regards Ralphie xx


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GUEST,Max in Louth
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 09:09 AM

Has the interest in Bulmer dried up or have I missed something??


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 04:46 PM

Chillin', Max, after the way things got so nasty.

If you click on the link I posted above (09-Jul-01 - 08:52 AM) it will take you to the continuation of this thread, as this one is now far too long for many browsers to load. Any further discussion would be better posted there.

Regards,

Noreen


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Subject: RE: The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga
From: GeorgeH
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 08:25 AM

But I don't think there's anything left to discuss; please see my post of a few minutes ago to that continuation thread Noreen mentioned.

George


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