Wrap or Barre the chord

Subject: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: 53
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 10:35 PM

When I barre a G chord on the 3rd fret I find it just as easy to wrap the chord using my thumb on the 6th string. Does anybody else play this chord that way? The same goes for the minor form of that chord also.

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: khandu
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 10:58 PM

Yes, quite often I use my thumb, depending on the style I am playing. Supposedly, it is a no-no to use the thumb, but after 36 years of playing, I figure that I can play it any way that I want to!

khandu

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: 53
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 11:00 PM

I feel the same way. Bob

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 11:07 PM

I also use my thumb, though that's fronded upon by jazz and classical guitar teachers. If it was good enough for Dave Van Ronk, it's good enough for me. Barre chords are a neccessary evil, but that doesn't mean you have to like them. Matter of taste. I have also seen some great guitatists who barre, just not something I like to do.

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Mark Ross
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 11:08 PM

Not only do I use the thumb on those chords(no matter where)that are really an F, but I use it on the D in 1st position. There is even a C7 that use the thumb for the 5th & 6th strings, which makes it a closed position. It can be used for D(up to frets)E(up 4) and so on. The way I see it, the guitar has 6 strings and I have only 5 fingers. There is no one right way to play. The only thing that matters is if it works for you. Thumbs Carlyle plays on his lap, ala Hawaiian style but frets with his hand in what seems like an unnatural position from above. And look at Richie Havens, he only uses his thumb.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 11:49 PM

Depends on the song... and the actual chord formation that I'm using... So I guess my answer is yes to both...

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 01:52 AM

wrap----Never made a barre chord in my life.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: mooman
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 03:39 AM

I prefer to wrap when possible but barre for some things, e.g. moving from minor to major when backing tunes in DADGAD. I agree with Mark, there is no right or wrong way just the best way for you!

Best regards

mooman

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 03:57 AM

Barre. My hands don't seem big enough to wrap.Thanks to my first guitar teacher who taught me to barre 'F' -'Learn it the hard way and you'll thank me later!'

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Hamish
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 06:51 AM

Ned - maybe your neck's too big for your hands! Seriously: some guitars are built with wide, flat necks - typically classical guitars are, and some with narrow, curved necks - rock electrics tend to be that way. The typical folkie fingerpicker's guitar is somewhere in-between, but you can get different widths, and, as an inveterate and unappologetic wrapper, I commend anyone to be crafeul about the profile and width of any new purchase.

I'm sure rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic will have loads to say on the subject...

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Hamish
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 06:54 AM

yep - try these

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 06:57 AM

I always use my thumb for the 6-string G chord, it makes you look more butch. Barre chords are for pansies and jazz players.

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Hamish
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 07:14 AM

btw - I have had the nut of my guitar specially modified to make the bass string a little closer to the edge of the fretboard than standard, which I find allows the benefits of slightly wider string spacing for my (clumsy) picking, and still allows wrapping over on the 6th string. Plus, since I strum a lot, the thumb's essential for damping on some chords

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 08:13 AM

Stefan Grossman in one of his "blues guitar" videos uggests strongly that you develop "the wrap" if you "wanna play the blues. If you use "the wrap" to paly that great blues chord D9, [(2T)(0)(0)(2M)(1I)(0)], it leaves the ring and the pinky available for "messing around". Stefan says "with practice anyone can do it". Of course, he lies. I have small hands and I play a Martin D-28. I can get my thumb around, but only to dampen the 6th string, not to clearly sound a note. And it isn't from lack of trying.

"The wrap" may require less finger strength than the barre. That's one advantage. "The wrap" also allows you to dampen the 5th string, leaving the pinky available for grace notes in the "F" position. It is doable with a barre (I can do it), but it is difficult.

So, as many have said before me, "it depends". I think it is easier to slide a barre position up the neck if you are doing power chording. Sometimes, the barre enables you to change to a chord that leaves one or more of the strings between 2 and 5 open to the barre. That's not so easy with "the wrap".

In the end, if you want to be a humdinger, folksinger uitarist, learn both ways. One will be easier for you, but it adds to your versatility to have access to both chord positions.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: 53
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:26 AM

The neck on my Strat Plus is just right for Barre chords or wrapping the chord, and I agree that it is where you are going on the neck determines the chord pattern that you use. Bob

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: SharonA
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:54 AM

Barre, virtually always. My hand is definitely too small to wrap comfortably, and I find it awkward to change chords from the thumb-on-string position to the thumb-behind-neck position. The only chord I wrap with any regularity is the D chord with the F# bass (or else I'll simply dampen the 6th string with my thumb).

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 12:52 PM

I was being daft about wrapping, I've never used it though I daresay I could. A barre seems to fill all my needs in playing.

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: RichM
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 01:24 PM

Same answer as Clinton: either, or both....when it makes the sound I want to achieve...
And I sometimes wrap the 6th string on a D chord if I want that low note then and there.

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 01:37 PM

Barre. Never found a situation where I needed to wrap. But I suppose if you play blues, it's part of the tradition. Actually, if you keep your left thumb behind the neck rather than using your thumb to hang your hand on the bass edge of the fingerboard, barre chords become pretty easy.

Ever try to do a bass run while holding a wrap? Bloody impossible. But it can be done while holding a barre.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 07:01 PM

To play Barre chords without flaking out, correct positioning of the guitar is necessary. There's something to be said for both styles, but if we are talking classical technique, the thumb should only be used if there's no other way. There's no way to play Davy graham's Anji, Steve Tilston's I Really Wanted You, or a lot of Rev. Gary Davis' tunes without the thumb, and there's no way to play a lot of rock, blues and open tuning stuff without barres. Truth is that it is better to learn to play barre chords, even if you don't use them, for that moment when you need them while playing with new people.

PS: I've seen Dave van Ronk play a barre chord backstage at Cambridge folk festival, but not in public!

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 08:51 PM

"Never found a situation where I needed to wrap" -

How about this then? Play what would be a G chord like an F two frets up, but lift the second finger so that the G string is played open, giving you a beautiful sounding G diad. Now try doing that with a barre chord.

There are things you can't do without a barre, and things you can't do with one. You need to be able to do it both ways.

What barre chord are best for is making sure your fingers are good and strong. And that's handy whatever way you play.

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: SlickerBill
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 10:04 PM

Right McGrath. That's a great chord I just discovered recently.

I mainly barre, but that's just the way I learned. What's great is that once you're comfortable there's a world of chords there. But I have come down with some huge cramps, especially playing with sax players; all these tunes in Eb.

I started adding the wrap to my playing as I went through a Bruce Cockburn songbook, and jsut found many chord voicings where that was the way to go. since then I've found lots of times when it works great. No right or wrong; just what works.

by the way; check out Jimi hendrix sometime if you want to see some major thumb work. And HUGE friggin' thumbs. SB

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 01:12 AM

I'm not saying that one can't cobble up a chord that can't be played without wrapping, I'm saying that I've never run into a situation where I needed to wrap. That's all. I do a lot of fingerpicking and arpeggios and I rarely strum, so I rarely play full block chords. Should I want to use such a chord, I would wrap. So far (I've been playing 50 years) I've never needed to. I'm not saying that one shouldn't do it if that fits the way you play. I do think, however, that if you have the choice in any given situation, the barre is better. I think it keeps the left hand freer.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Mooh
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 04:43 AM

Both. There really shouldn't be a debate about this, as I am fond of telling my guitar students, because technique should not get in the way of the efficient performance of the song, tune, or improvisation. If both techniques are possible for the player to execute, then use them where either would be appropriate. My only caution is to avoid any technique which has a damaging physical affect, which shouldn't be a problem with these. Use what is comfortable for you, or what best serves the song or tune.

It is interesting to hear our preferences here. Experienced folkies will influence folkies to come.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Larkin
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 06:43 AM

I've always been a wrap man but like mooman I uas Barre for backing tunes and I'm just realizing that I should have done a lot more barring. Having just bought a cittern tuned GDGCG I'mhaving to Barre an awful lot more to be able to play in all the native keys for Irish tunes and my first finger is almost dropping off. Trouble is I can't put the bloody thing down coz I'm enjoying it so much.

Martin Long

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 09:06 AM

Just dropping by -- haven't been here a while. I'm generally in the "whatever works" school of thought, and the same holds true here. There are, and have been, some amazing guitar players who always wrap, and others who always barre. Far be it from me to say that Jimi Hendrix and Andres Segovia didn't know what they were doing, even though both played guitar completely differently.

However, there are some real issues of ergonomics at stake here. Ergonomically, the wrap is a limiting option; your freedom of movement when wrapping is severely constrained, unless you have huge hands like Hendrix did. A lot of folks who wrap have dramatically limited their technique in other ways (whether they know the reason or not), because they simply can't do much with the rest of their fingers when their whole hand is devoted to wrapping itself around the neck. There are exceptions to this, but for the most part the people I've seen who wrap either just strum chords (which may be why McGrath refers to a six-string chord as the proof that wrapping is necessary), or play fairly repetitive blues-based progressions. If that's all you're interested in doing, fine. But if you want to have more options, you may want to think about raising the neck and adjusting your hand position to bring your fretting hand in from underneath the neck, which inevitably means that you will dispense with the wrap in the process.

Moreover, those who advocate doing both may find that they are forced to hold the guitar in a compromise position that allows for both, but provides an optimal hand position for neither. Either that, or they are constantly shifting their posture to accommodate one approach or the other. It can be done, of course, but I don't think it's ideal.

The ergonomics of guitar playing are extremely important to continued progress; lots of people ignore them, and then get frustrated by their inability to play the way they would like to. I play in all musical styles myself, but I am fortunate to have started as a classical guitarist, studying within a discipline that places great emphasis on hand positions intended to allow maximum freedom of movement with minimum strain. And like Don Firth, as a confirmed "barre" player, I have never encountered a situation where I couldn't play what I wanted to play without wrapping.

With all that said, however, the original philosophy still applies -- the best way to play is whatever works best for you.

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Mooh
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 10:36 AM

Whistle Stop...nice to see you again...I enjoyed your ergonomics comments.

I don't think I have a compromise instrument position or posture based on the wrap/barre thing, but I do move around alot (squirm, even) as I play, regardless of what my hands are doing. This has more to do with my general physical discomfort due to a bad back I think. When I grabbed my guitar this morning to test this, I found that my most comfortable position with my most comfortable guitar allowed me to do both easily.

Just a thought...I don't wrap at all on mandolin but barre like crazy. What do folks do on mandolin? Maybe I should try wrapping it.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 10:54 AM

My point was that, if you don't have the option of fretting with the thumb, you have to do without some sounds that you might in certain circumstances need. Obviously there are other things where a barre, partial, or full, is necessary.

I just now tried playing a piece in which I was using a barre some of the time, and wrapping around to fret with the thumb at other times. There didn't seem to be any need to change the guitar position significantly.

Of course this is with a guitar with a relatively narrow neck - with a full width classical guitar I can't envisage anyone being able to wrap the thumb round, at least not without going through the most painful contortions. Clearly there are other advantages to a wide neck that make up for this restriction for people who prefer them.

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Spartacus
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 11:06 AM

Have you guys seen Ritchie Havens? He's got hands the size of small children. He'll play in open tunings and use his thumb for the E and A strings....

spartacus

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 01:00 PM

Mooh, thanks for the "welcome back". My points were probably expressed a little more stridently than I meant them to be. In the end, what works... works. And as I said, there have been too many great guitarists who played in all sorts of different styles, and with all sorts of different techniques, for me to claim that I have the one and only "right" answer to this. For me, wrapping would restrict my hand too much. But I'm humble enough to recognize that there are some incredible players out there who view this differently.

To be fair, the other situation where I've seen a lot of wrapping (is this becoming the accepted term?) is with rock'n'roll guitar players -- which typically employ a low-slung guitar with a skinny neck. Some of them are quite good at it (Hendrix, Page, Townshend, etc.), but that's really a whole different style, and largely a chordal one; the single-string leads these folks do generally aren't played with a thumb wrap, to the best of my recollection.

McGrath, I still have trouble thinking of a situation where I would need a wrap to produce a particular chord or set of notes. Your "barred G with the second finger raised" example simply has two strings playing the note sounded by the open G string (the open G string being one, and the fifth-fret D string being the other). In the context of a full six-string chord I would not feel that there is any real advantage to playing that note on two strings simultaneously; to play that chord, I'd probably just play a standard first-position G chord (with three open strings), and mute the low B if I didn't want it to sound.

Mooh, I also barre on the mandolin (I know it doesn't mean much, since I barre on everything). My guess is that, even among those who wrap on guitar, you'll find few who wrap on mandolin. Those little strings are awfully close together, and I have trouble imagining anyone getting that kind of precision with their thumb. But if you are inclined to do it, at least it's a thin neck.

See you guys next time -- WS

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 01:51 PM

The whole point is to get that extra G ringing out. Doesn't sound the same without it, and I like the sound. But it's not compulsory...

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: Mooh
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 03:14 PM

Thanks WS. I know a lefthanded player who plays a regular righthand strung guitar leftey and uses the over the top thumb technique to great advantage. It took me ages to learn to follow his hand when the band was learning songs, and now he plays mostly fiddle! Saw another guy playing electric bass with his feet, and well. I tried it and can't get much beyond root and fifth, but then again I can't dance either!

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: dwditty
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 09:20 PM

Since my fingers pretty much have a mind of their own, sometimes I wrap, sometimes I barre...I really have no say in the matter.

dw

Subject: RE: Wrap or Barre the chord
From: 53
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 10:18 PM

That's the way that I play, sometimes barre and sometimes the wrap.