Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)

Subject: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 07:51 AM

Hey all,

I wondered if some of you with your vast combined musical knowledge might be able to help me out...

I'm in the process of doing a bit of research, and quite a fundamental part of it concerns the portrayal of Jesus (i.e. christology) in the southern US states around the time of the depression and westward migration. The work centres around the depiction of Preacher Casy in Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath as a 'Christlike figure'...

Anyhow, I'm looking for - or at least pointers towards - any relevant songs or sources from the period. I'm thinking of things along the lines of Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' (i.e. the 'liberation christology' of Jesus as a working man, put to death at the hands of the cops, bankers, preachers etc. for siding with the poor and oppressed), or indeed 'I Dreamed I Saw Joe Hill Last Night' (which seems to place the eponym in a 'Christlike' role similar to that of Steinbeck's Casy).

I don't think I've explained this too well at all, have I? :-)

Thanks ev'rybody!
Stephen

Subject: Folkie Christology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 12:20 PM

It's an interesting question, Stephen. And you're right, it IS difficult to figure out how to title the thread and how to phrase the question. In the first half of the 20th century, a kind of "folkie christology" developed, perhaps in answer to the Fundamentalist christology that developed at the same time. I suppose it was most evident in songs, but it was a view of Christ and God that was evident in many aspects of progressive movements. I think the christ of Woody Guthrie was also the Christ of the civil rights movement and of the United Farm Workers, and of the Christians who campaigned for peace in the 1960's.
I hadn't thought to explore the sources of this christology, but it's certainly an interesting question. This view of Christ has had a strong effect on my own theology since I was a Catholic seminary student in the 1960's.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: SueB
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM

Guthrie's Christ for President? Not sure if I understand the question, but I'm thinking of the line that goes "with a job and a pension for young and old, we will let hallelujah ring."

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 01:52 PM

Thanks Joe - very intersting... I "folkie christology" seems to have its closest parallels (and most striking statement) in Latin American Liberation Theology. In fact, it was thinking on that (I'm a Philosophy & Theology undergrad) that set me thinking about Steinbeck's Casy and Woody's 'JC'...

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: fretless
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 03:28 PM

Stephen, In the same vein but a bit later than the time period you specify and from the wrong side of the pond, Ewan McColl's ballad that begins "Jesus was a working man and a hero you shall hear; born in the town of Bethlehem at the turning of the year." I couldn't come up with it in the DT or on Google, but I was probably searching for the wrong title.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 05:18 PM

Hey fretless - thanks for the heads up! I did a little google search, and the song's called 'The Ballad of the Carpenter'...
lyric's here: http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics/ballad-of-the-carpenter.html

SB

---

Ballad of the Carpenter in the Forum

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: fretless
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 05:32 PM

Thanks, Stephen. It is a wonderful singing ballad and it's great to finally have all the words.

Subject: ADD: Comrade Jesus
From: Joe_F
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 08:13 PM

In a similar vein, by Sarah Cleghorn:

Comrade Jesus

Thanks to Saint Matthew, who had been
At mass meetings in Palestine,
We know whose side was spoken for
When Comrade Jesus had the floor.

"Where sore they toil and hard they lie,
Among the great unwashed, dwell I.
The tramp, the convict, I am he;
Cold-shoulder him, cold-shoulder me."

By Dives' door, with thoughtful eye,
He did tomorrow prophesy.
"The kingdom's gate is low and small;
The rich can scarce get through at all."

"A dangerous man," said Caiaphas,
"An ignorant demagogue, alas,
Friend of low women, it is he
Slanders the upright Pharisee."

For was and order, it was plain,
For holy church, he must be slain.
The troops were there to awe the crowd
And "violence" was not allowed.

Their clumsy force with force to foil
His strong clean hands he would not soil.
He saw their childishness quite plain
Between the lightnings of his pain.

Between the twilights of his end
He made his fellow-felon friend;
With swollen tongue and blinding eyes
Invited him to paradise.

In _A New Anthology of Modern Poetry_ (Selden Rodman, Ed., 1938). No date is given for the poem. I don't know if it's been set to music.

The genre was parodied by some miscellaneous nonStalinist leftists in _The Bosses Songbook_ (1958):

Jesus Christ

(Tune: Jesse James)

Jesus Christ was a man, an honest working man,
A carpenter true and brave.
He told all the rich to give their money to the poor,
So they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

Chorus:
Jesus had no wife to mourn for his life
And he needed a bath and a shave,
But that foe of the proletariat,
Judas Iscariot
Laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

Born in 29 B.C., in a barn in Galilee,
Bathed in his unwed mother's tears,
He fought the ruling classes
And preached gospel to the masses,
And antedated Marx by 1800 years.

Judas was the guy, the lousy labor spy,
A stoolie for the Roman boss.
He drank Jesus' blood and he ate Jesus' body,
And he nailed Jesus Christ to the cross.

With thieves on either side, Jesus Christ was crucified,
And tears filled Mary'e eyes.
But his last words to you and me from that hill on Calvary
Were -- "Don't pray for me -- ORGANIZE!"

(Optional verse for Trotskyites)

When he was planted in the ground, his followers gathered round
To spread his word by the sword and Cannon,
But his following today is as corrupt in every way
As the party of Khrushchev and Bulganin.

And the moral, IMO, is: When tempted to make a generalization about Christians, try it out on Communists, and vice versa.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 08:53 PM

Another couple of songs that fit here are Jackson Browne's The Rebel Jesus and "Crucifixion," by Phil Ochs. I can't find the Ochs lyrics, but I swear they've been posted here.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 09:01 PM

There's Tom Waits, "Chocolate Jesus."

ALso a lot of songs about religious themes are about growing up Catholic, you know, people working out how they feel about it.

~Susan

Subject: ADD: Crucifixion (Ochs)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 04 - 09:10 PM

I thought for sure these lyrics had been posted, but I couldn't find them. I found them here: http://www.lyricsdepot.com/phil-ochs/crucifixion.html
I can't guarantee the accuracy of the lyrics, but I'll cechk and correct them later.
I first heard this on a Limeliters recording, with Glenn Yarbrough singing lead with his powerful tenor voice.
-Joe Offer-

Crucifixion
(Phil Ochs)

And the night comes again to the circle studded sky
The stars settle slowly, in lonliness they lie
'Till the universe expodes as a falling star is raised
Planets are paralyzed, mountains are amazed
But they all glow brighter from the briliance of the blaze
With the speed of insanity, then he dies.

In the green fields a turnin', a baby is born
His cries crease the wind and mingle with the morn
An assault upon the order, the changing of the guard
Chosen for a challenge that is hopelessly hard
And the only single sound is the sighing of the stars
But to the silence and distance they are sworn

So dance dance dance
Teach us to be true
Come dance dance dance
'Cause we love you

Images of innocence charge him go on
But the decadence of destiny is looking for a pawn
To a nightmare of knowledge he opens up the gate
And a blinding revelation is laid upon his plate
That beneath the greatest love is a hurricane of hate
And God help the critic of the dawn.

So he stands on the sea and shouts to the shore,
But the louder that he screams the longer he's ignored
For the wine of oblivion is drunk to the dregs
And the merchants of the masses almost have to be begged
'Till the giant is aware, someone's pulling at his leg,
And someone is tapping at the door.

To dance dance dance
Teach us to be true
Come dance dance dance
'Cause we love you

Then his message gathers meaning and it spreads accross the land
The rewarding of his pain is the following of the man
But ignorance is everywhere and people have their way
Success is an enemy to the losers of the day
In the shadows of the churches, who knows what they pray
For blood is the language of the band.

The Spanish bulls are beaten; the crowd is soon beguiled,
The matador is beautiful, a symphony of style
Excitement is estatic, passion places bets
Gracefully he bows to ovations that he gets
But the hands that are applauding are slippery with sweat
And saliva is falling from their smiles

So dance dance dance
Teach us to be true
Come dance dance dance
'Cause we love you

Then this overflow of life is crushed into a liar
The gentle soul is ripped apart and tossed into the fire.
First a smile of rejection at the nearness of the night
Truth becomes a tragedy limping from the light
All the heavens are horrified, they stagger from the sight
As the cross is trembling with desire.

They say they can't believe it, it's a sacreligious shame
Now, who would want to hurt such a hero of the game?
But you know I predicted it; I knew he had to fall
How did it happen? I hope his suffering was small.
Tell me every detail, for I've got to know it all,
And do you have a picture of the pain?

So dance dance dance
Teach us to be true
Come dance dance dance
'Cause we love you

Time takes her toll and the memory fades
but his glory is broken, in the magic that he made.
Reality is ruined; it's the freeing from the fear
The drama is distorted, to what they want to hear
Swimming in their sorrow, in the twisting of a tear
As they wait for the new thrill parade.

Yes, the eyes of the rebel have been branded by the blind
To the safety of sterility, the threat has been refined
The child was created to the slaughterhouse he's led
So good to be alive when the eulogy is read
The climax of emotion, the worship of the dead
And the cycle of sacrifice unwinds.

So dance dance dance
Teach us to be true
Come dance dance dance
'Cause we love you

And the night comes again to the circle studded sky
The stars settle slowly, in lonliness they lie
'Till the universe expodes as a falling star is raised
Planets are paralyzed, mountains are amazed
But they all glow brighter from the briliance of the blaze
With the speed of insanity, then he died.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 01:07 AM

Interesting. Has the working man become more conservative and moved toward the evangelical faiths now? My younger daughter a couple of years ago was working on a thesis based on the cowboy and rodeo church, an informal group. Very independent people, but conservative overall.

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 03:09 AM

Carl Sandburg came in early on this theme - 1915 - with his poem "To Billy Sunday." He couldn't get it printed then the way he wrote it.

He says

"I've read Jesus' words. I know what he said. You
        don't throw any scare into me. I've got your
        number. I know how much you know about
        Jesus....
"I won't take my religion from a man who never
        works except with his mouth..."

http://www.scn.org/~davidb/sunday.html

clint

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 05:58 AM

Thanks folks - this stuff's all just what I'm looking for...!

Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?)
From: wanderhope
Date: 07 Jun 04 - 07:47 AM

Thanks for this interetesting and provacative thread. I graduated twice from a Baptist Seminary known, at least among Baptists, as what the 19th century would call "freethinking". It is no more so. But my take on the appropriation of Jesus as a figure to whom either the left or the right may lay claim as true descendents is usually flawed. More likely to me is the notion that each generation remakes the image of Jesus in the form and shape of that generation -- sort of a "this is the Lord that the Day hath made," thing -- sometimes it's to look for a hero, sometimes it's to look for a blessing of one's own particular brand of rationalization.

Jim