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BS: Don't ask don't tell
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 19 Dec 10 - 07:45 AM "As I have stated before, I will approach this process deliberately and will make such certification only after careful consultation with the military service chiefs and our combatant commanders and when I am satisfied that those conditions have been met for all the Services, commands and units," Gates said. They could have done all that while they have been waiting for this to come about. Procrastination will not only be the thief of time here I fear. As an aside I am still totally perplexed by how so many people still see someone's sexuality as their business. This facination with anal sex seems to be a product of other's sexual imaginations as a great many gay men never take part in 'taking it up the ass' as is so often quoted. Such comments also deny that gay women are also part of our military services and it is tantamount to singling out one facet of a whole diverse set of behaviours that humans express. As John Steinbeck writes in "Cannery Row"... "The remarkable thing," said Doc, "isn't that they [stinkbugs] put their tails up in the air: the really incredibly remarkable thing is that we find it remarkable. We can only use ourselves as yardsticks my brackets. I will not go into the morality of wars and killing people here. That is way too way too far a jump for this thread. Like not all gay men take part in anal sex, not all servicemen/women kill. But I will say this. If people can kill other men and women, they sure as heck should be allowed to love them too! Back on Cannery row... "He can kill anything for need but he could not even hurt a feeling for pleasure." Just some thoughts mp
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: alanabit Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:10 AM I just read a headline from a German newspaper, which told me that "US Soldiers are now allowed to be gay". That is wonderful, is it not? From now on US service personnel will be able to decide which sort of sexuality nature predestined them to? Shucks, I'm getting all confused... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: JohnInKansas Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:00 AM Hooray - it's all over .................(?) Pentagon: Lifting gay ban to take time Defense Secretary Gates vows immediate action to implement change NBC News and news services updated 12/18/2010 7:21:56 PM ET WASHINGTON — "Don't ask, don't tell" will remain military policy awhile longer despite a historic Senate vote on Saturday to overturn it. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Saturday he welcomed final congressional passage of the Pentagon policy's repeal but it will take time to implement. "Once this legislation is signed into law by the president, the Department of Defense will immediately proceed with the planning necessary to carry out this change carefully and methodically, but purposefully," Gates said in a statement obtained by NBC News. Leading the effort will be Dr. Clifford Stanley, Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness and a retired Marine Corps major general and infantry officer, Gates said. The legislation says the president and his top military advisers must certify that lifting the ban won't hurt troops' fighting ability. New policies and regulations must be "consistent with the standards of military readiness, military effectiveness, unit cohesion, and recruiting and retention of the Armed Forces," Gates said. After certification, there's a 60-day waiting period for the military. "As I have stated before, I will approach this process deliberately and will make such certification only after careful consultation with the military service chiefs and our combatant commanders and when I am satisfied that those conditions have been met for all the Services, commands and units," Gates said. Meanwhile, he told troops, current law and policy will remain in effect. "Successful implementation will depend upon strong leadership, a clear message and proactive education throughout the force," he said. Under the expected procedure, the Defense Department will conduct servicewide training and education for all active duty, reserve and national guard forces, and make whatever adjustments in procedures and facilities are necessary, NBC News said. A servicewide memo will be sent instructing any gay or lesbian service members not to openly declare their sexual orientation because they could potentially be subject to separation from the military, NBC News said. [Sounds a lot like business as usual to me(?)] John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: artbrooks Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:57 AM I remember my father talking about the first Black replacements assigned to his battery in Korea in 1952, and how his first sergeant felt it necessary to beat the crap out of them so that they would "know their place". That was two - or maybe three - generations ago. I expect that the people who will have problems with this will be a very small number of senior enlisted people (sergeants), as well as those who have trouble with anyone who isn't exactly like them. Ten years from now, we will all wonder...what was the big deal all about? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 18 Dec 10 - 11:02 PM so glad we are over this! Wish for headlines- american gays mob recruiting stations trying to server their country go for it glad to have you so glad that we are now united corporal klinger is obsolete Conrad |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 18 Dec 10 - 10:31 PM Ask what??? You mean is someone immoral enough to shoot another human to death, and still likes it up the ass? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: mauvepink Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:51 PM How the BBC is reporting it in the UK Fingers crossed! mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: JohnInKansas Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM As reported in the news, the Senate bill that just passed includes a requirement that implementation cannot begin until the Secretary of Defence and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff certify that there's "no problem," so there's still the possibility of significant foot dragging, if not obstruction. It appears that the appropriate key offices have endorsed removal of the old policy, but it remains to see, in complete form, what the new policy really will be; and I'd hate to see existing affected people "out" themselves prematurely and get hit with "minor conditions, exclusions, and special considerations" in the policy that eventually results. Been in the military, and worked with them from the outside for a long time, so I think I'll suggest cautious optimism until the feathers settle. A discreet smile seems justified at this point, although for now all we have is the beginning of the end of it. Long overdue. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: mauvepink Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:37 PM !00 up on here and well up on the vote. It's brilliant! :-) mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Desert Dancer Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:21 PM Wow. Squeaked by at 65-31. It's crazy how these things have to be done, but it actually got done! Whew! ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: katlaughing Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM WOW! I am so happy to hear this good news!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: mauvepink Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:37 PM Yay! Thanks for posting the good news This is a great day for true freedom Am so happy for all those whose life it will make better :-) Happy Christmas! mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Amos Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:53 PM Idoubt Obama will hesitate a minute in signing this repeal into law. About time indeed! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: artbrooks Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:49 PM Actually, the President signs it and the military implements it - the JCS don't have a vote. About time! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:37 PM It has passed the Senate! Now it has to be "certified by" the president, the joint chiefs of staff an the Secretary of Defense, all of whom have previously agreed to it. Sooner the better! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: mauvepink Date: 18 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM If gay people were allowed to be open and out then blackmail could never be a threat on their sexuality. Yet another good reason for allowing openess. All this said, though, and it is still beyond me what anyone's sexuality has to do with anyone else. Who knows what hetrosexuals get up to legally and who cares? It should be the same for gay people and nothing less. Take away the means to blackmail someone and you can have no blackmail! mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Skivee Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:18 AM They're both a bit creepy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:45 PM When I was doing security clearance investigations (1974-2002), I had to follow up if people alleged that the person I was investigating was a homosexual. We didn't ask upfront whether the person was homosexual, but we were supposed to follow up if witnesses said so. Gee, I hated doing that. If a witness disclosed that the subject was a homosexual, we were supposed to ask if he/she had any reason to hide it, or if there was anything about the person's sexual conduct that could make him subject to blackmail. There was only one case where I thought the issue might have been important - that person ended up working for the Americans in a country where the culture was very hostile to homosexuals, and and I wondered whether the person's homosexuality could have put him in danger. Apparently, it didn't. Oh, there was a second case - an employee of the Border Patrol who had a series of same-sex lovers. All of these lovers came from foreign countries on temporary visas and all were just barely over the legal age of 18, considerably younger than the agent himself. That one really made me wonder. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Lonesome EJ Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:18 PM Republicans, Democrats, whatever. Anybody who thinks this makes sense is a moron. I'd much rather be in a foxhole with Ru Paul. At least I know he has a damn brain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: mousethief Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:12 PM Too true, gnu. The Republicans have no conscience and the Democrats have no spine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: gnu Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:00 PM It's the establishment that is missing a pair of balls. Stand up for freedom and equality for all you buncha old hipocritic idiots... he says to those that have deaf ears. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:49 PM Oh, I don't think it is you, EJ, who is missing something! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Lonesome EJ Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:47 PM Why do Republicans think it makes sense for the army to have homosexuals in it as long as a)they don't admit it and b)nobody asks them to admit it ? So they can go on pretending that homosexuals don't serve in the army? And we're supposed to go along with this delusion?? I mean, you either bar gays from the armed services, or you don't. If you let them serve, what's the purpose of "don't ask, don't tell"? AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:39 PM I really needed a good laugh! Thank you! I actually thought about that while posting and decided to leave it at man. Leave it to you.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: GUEST,999 Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:35 PM . . . or cave woman. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:22 PM The military seem to have to stick their nose into everything! And then proceed to make a mess of it all. They seem to think they rule the world and until they get a clear message that this is not true.... From the first stone thrown by one cave man at another...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: GUEST,999 Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:11 PM What I have never understood is why this is any of the military`s damned business, or the country`s for that matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:59 PM All day I have hoped for word, either here or from the NYT. Friday night and we have been left... Bummer! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: mauvepink Date: 17 Dec 10 - 07:03 AM So this could be a great Christmas present for the American people to give to their Servicemen/women? I really hope so :-) mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Desert Dancer Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:46 PM Three Republicans today joined the repeal side of the potential votes in the Senate. "Senator Susan Collins, the bill's one Republican sponsor, has been joined by three other Republican senators — Scott P. Brown of Massachusetts, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Olympia J. Snowe of Maine — in supporting the measure." "Along with the backing of 54 Democrats and two independents, the Republican support is enough to push the measure to the necessary 60-vote threshold. Another Democrat who backs repeal, Ron Wyden of Oregon, announced Thursday that he would undergo surgery for prostate cancer on Monday and be absent for votes starting Friday. Only one Democrat, Joe Manchin III of West Virginia, has declined to support the measure. "The bill's greatest obstacle is no longer votes, but the clock." Bid to Repeal 'Don't Ask' Law Draws Support in Senate Fingers crossed. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Bobert Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:14 PM Yer correct, Jeri... We on the left do hate stupidity, greed, dumb wars, exploitation, the "ism"s and mean people... Guilty as charged... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: gnu Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:56 PM I only ever had one friend that was "openly gay", as far as could be back then. It was over 25 years ago. He was a Proctor in residence at uni and an extremely intelligent student from England. He was a well respected scholar and member of The Church Of England (he was the organ player... sorry... we made a lot of jokes about it back than and he laughed along). He taught me a lot about his problems and I overcame my childish childhood teachings that homosexuality was evil. Things have advanced over the past few decades and now the US government seems poised to join reality... as MT said, "Someday, maybe." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Jeri Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:54 PM Bigotry is alive and well on the left as well as the right... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Bobert Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:45 PM Yeah, but we gotta keep Redneck Nation happy, don't we??? After all, they do have the collective intelligence to follow Boss Hog's directions in the voting booths... Not much more other knowing how how to tie a gay to a pickup truck and drag him down dirt roads until he is dead... Lotta intellect there, Bubba... Seriously, when we have laws that condone bullying then we shouldn't complain when something like that, which did happen in Texas BTW, occurs... I mean, garbage in = garbage out... Look at what the brown shirts did??? I mean, the US has it's own brown shirts and DADT is just one more way to keep them busy... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:45 PM In WW2, when I was inducted, a large, frog-like officer was at the end of the medical examination line. When I reached his position, he gave me a dead-eyed stare and asked "Do you like girls?" I had a couple of physical shortcomings, so like many others in the same boat, I was stamped "Army Only" and was eventually assigned to the Medical Corps. I had answered "Some of them" to the doctor, but I think I would have reached the same destination if I had said "No". A fair number of homosexuals were in the Army Medical Corps. I don't recall that it affected, or interferred with, their work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Jeri Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:35 PM "Don't ask, don't tell" is a stupid policy. When it was put into place, I thought it was a stupid policy. I served with gays and lesbians, but most of the time, I guessed. No way I would ask anyone. It was none of my business, but my friends might have volunteered the information if not for the fact that I could have been called as a witness in a court martial. "Don't ask, don't tell," but if we find out, you're screwed. The policy gives bullies a license to torment gays and lesbians. When a person is forced into a closet, it makes being dragged out a serious threat. It's a stupid policy that forces a person to pretend to be someone they are not, and THEN expects them to be honest and honorable, to take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. How can you trust someone who can pretend to be something they aren't? It's a stupid policy. What reality was like when I was in was that people who would accept gays and lesbians in civilian life, did so in the military, even if THEY had to pretend not to know or suspect anything. The people who would have been homophobes and bullies in civilian life, but who at least acted fair because THE LAW SAID THEY HAD TO had, in the military, a free rein to persecute people they perceived as gay or lesbian, because there was, and IS, no protection for them. Don't ask/don't tell is a STUPID policy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: mauvepink Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:56 PM Thank you but the words are hardly mine. However, without such actions as need to be taken to release these servicemen/women to have to lie or be disgraced, they are only words. They are GREAT words but what would give them great validity is action. President Lincoln could not have known when he delivered the Address that he would have to die for doing what he believed in. His wonderfully powerful words reach out across the generations and decades that have passed since his assasination to mean as much now, I feel, as they they did back. Actions have always spoke louder than words however. mp NB I mention servicemen/women as I have mentioned soldiers previously. Of course, I mean all those in the military and have now corrected my oversight I hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: gnu Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:41 PM Yes, 999... HEAR HEAR mauvepink!!! Freedom, liberty and justice for all... we hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:36 PM Beautiful post, mauvepink. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: mauvepink Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:31 PM "Now is the time for us to act," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, and "close the door on a fundamental unfairness in our nation." "It is up to the Senate to consign this failed and discriminatory law to the dustbin of history," Solmonese added. It could be the land of free in so many simple ways that SHOW the true freedom of it's citizens. I would put this alongside being equally as important as ratifying a nuclear arms treaty with Russia. What is there to protect if the people themselves are not protected and free from oppressions? I am moved to remember some of the Gettysburg Address. The Address itself always touches me when I read it. I always find the final paragraph most poignant... But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. (in recent conflicts read men as man & women) So many have given their all. Maybe it is time for their nation to give them back their freedoms to be who they are and live as they need to? I wish the repeal the very best of success so that the soldiers who are gay and fighting for our freedoms can live in freedom themselves. mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: mousethief Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:07 AM Land of the free, they call it. Someday, maybe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: bobad Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM House passes repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell' By The Associated Press Wednesday, December 15th, 2010 -- 5:39 pm The House voted Wednesday to repeal the "don't ask, don't tell policy that for 17 years has forced gays desiring to serve in the military to conceal their sexual identity. The 250-175 vote propels the issue to the Senate for what could be the last chance for now to end the 1993 law that forbids recruiters from asking about sexual orientation while prohibiting soldiers from acknowledging that they are gay. It's "the only law in the country that requires people to be dishonest or be fired if they choose to be honest," said Rep. Jared Polis, D-Colo. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/house-passes-repeal-dont-tell/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: gnu Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:21 PM k... ""I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses." (Mrs. Campbell)" Takes a BIG Marine to frighten a horse! >;-) Sorry... I had to. It's in my statement of duties and qualifications as an understudy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: GUEST,seth in Olympia Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:10 PM I sure met a lot of gay men in the U.S. Air Force between 1966-70-some were enlisted as I was as a way of avoiding a combat role in Viet-Nam, others were serious lifer, soldier, warrior types-some supervised me and some I supervised and others I just knew or knew about. Great education for me. I met many more gay ex-marines and rangers when I lived in Oakland in Berkeley in the 1970's |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: kendall Date: 04 Dec 10 - 02:14 PM Why do right wingers spend so much time and energy worrying about how other people express their love? Funny you should ask, The answer, as I see it, is, FEAR. All hatred is based in fear. Those meatheads who hate anything that is different from them are scared that they may have homo tendencies and they over compensate for it. Imagine a big tough Marine who has to stand there and watch a gay guy do the same job is he does and just as well! What does that say about the difficulty of his job? "I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses." (Mrs. Campbell) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:50 AM Thanks art. I did not realise there was such a difference between the term Judge in the US compared to the UK. Even so. I suspect he would now be looking for a job had he said it in the UK! One of the big things about DADT is that STI's can go untreated in fear of being 'outed' by medical staff within the forces if certain STI's are found that could generally only be transmitted by a certain act. It still seems incredulous that grown men and women fighting for their country in the so-called 'free world' can be treated in such a way. These people are not only asked to be brave and heroic, as all hetrosexuals are, but also show great bravery in living the way they do in the fear they are under of being discovered. In the UK the problem does not arise. If you do your job then that is all the armed forces are interested in (on paper anyway). It has not always been the case I know but at least it is a step in the right direction. Thanks for 'correcting' my ignorance in any case mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: artbrooks Date: 03 Dec 10 - 07:30 AM In the interests of accurate data, Mr. Gates served two years in the Air Force, 1967-1969, and rose to the exalted rank of lieutenant. He spent most of his government career as a spook. The "judge" mentioned above is one Joe Rehyansky, who is a part-time county magistrate in Tennessee. This is, in the US, very different from a judge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: LadyJean Date: 03 Dec 10 - 12:39 AM I cleaned for a very nice old man, who had served in the Second World War. I dusted his Air Medal every other Saturday. He was pleasant, well educated, and gay as a three dollar bill. My (male) housemate took over for me one day. The old man, who, generally left me alone, felt a need to supervise poor Don as he did the kitchen floor. Don was more amused than anything. The point is, this gent lied about his sexual orientation to serve his country. Apparently a great many gay men did, and still do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Donuel Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:05 PM McCain had a serious senior moment today when he said sic "I served in the military, I know better!, Gates never served in the military and therefore doesn't know what he's talking about!" (I think he is really losing it due to stage 1 Alzheimers) Not only did General Gates serve, he served condordently with McCain in active duty and beyond. Worse than that McCain said" So what you have all the studies I asked for. You never asked the service men what they want done about dADT. The Admiral of the navy repsponded, "Anyone in the military knows that the military has never put out a referendum on policy or orders to its servicemen and women. Can you imagine if we asked soldiers if they felt like they might want to take hill 51, or when they would like to go on leave? To which McCain replied "Who took my tapioca pudding, I set it down right here and now its gone." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell From: Desert Dancer Date: 02 Dec 10 - 10:13 PM Sickening and frightening. |