Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: toadfrog
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 10:52 PM

To change the subject back to Kerry for a moment--I'm sure he did the right thing by owning up, but as he did that only after the newspapers exposed the matter, it necessarily heroic.
Does anyone know what Bob Kerry's politicsare like?!! The one time I would vote for Ralph Nader would be if the Democrats nominated somebody like Bob Kerry.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: kendall
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 10:14 PM

If Kerry really did line up a group of women and children, and have them shot down, as at least two eye witnesses say, I think it should come to light. According to a news report, he is no longer in the service, so, he can not be tried for that act. Ok, Goering was no longer in the service, Eichmann, Hess and Mengle were no longer in the service, yet they were condemned to death. Does anyone see a discrepency here?

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: MarkS
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 10:12 PM

Just a quick aside to Allan C who quotes from Brecht, "What if the gave a war and nobody came."
Little known is the next line of that piece,
"Than the war will come to you."
Interesting perspective
Mark

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 04:55 PM

Above all, remember this

THERE NEVER WAS A GOOD WAR NOR A BAD PIECE!

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 04:48 PM

Random comments after too quick a scan of additional postings that certainly deserve more attention--

It's important at a certain level to argue Rep vs. Demo. or Whig or Tory or whatever. At this level we're talking about, all that matters is if were human and choose to recognize our obligations to fellow humans, regardless of their race, etc.

Maybe I failed in 1968-69 to act in a totally moral manner. I had less excuse than some, having actually taken some Asian Studies courses in college. But I went to RVN anyway, because that's where I was ordered to go. I applaud Spaw and others whose clarity of vision was greater.

Somebody back there said Calley did no wrong, and/or, if he did, it was justified by the fact that he was following orders. Gong! That's the "Eichmann defense." Befehl ist befehl. Only they aren't.

Saying they were all Cong is wishthink; read Vietnamese sources. A lot of them were just apolitical farmers who wanted the round-eyes and the Northerners both to go away and stop killing their buffalo and running tanks through the paddies. Recall, please, that we try (sometimes) to operate on the presumption of innocence. "Kill 'em all and let God sort it out" was twisted humor, maybe, but not a prescription for humane action.

Heard last night on the news that brother Kerry went to the big peace demo in Washington where everybody threw their medals on the capital steps. He threw his ribbons, they say, but kept the medals. Wanted to have his cake and eat it too. And this is "presidential??" Not to me.

Who said they were in a good mood before this thread came along. Hmmm. For once I don't feel like ending with a cryptically facetious paradox, so I must be in the same category.

CC

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:50 PM

"the fifty some odd thousand that died fighting a war "

It wasn't "50 some odd thousands" who died. It was millions. Far more Vietnamese combatants died than Americans - on both sides. But the number of civilians who died was vastly greater. And sadly this is not a far-off war that is over and done with. And they are still dying from landmines, and from the effects of Agent Orange.

Talking about Vietnam as if the only deaths that mattered were those of the Americans who went over there is to collude in a distortion of history. Can you conceive of anyone writing about the American War of Independence and only taking any note of the British soldiers who were killed?

Truth hurts, but lies hurt more. On the account in that story Bob Kerrey told the truth at the time - and then got trapped into colluding in a lie dreamt up by the people higher up. People like Colin Powell who tried to cover up the My Lai atrocity.

Wounds don't heal cleanly if they aren't cleaned properly.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 03:43 PM

I suspect my perspective on Viet Nam is a bit different that most people. When I was eight, my father was the Captain of the USS Montrail (APA 213), an attack transport that had spent the Korean War transporting invasion troops for Inchon. During WWII, he had two destroyers sunk from under him and met my Mom (who had lost her first husband as a Marine Lieutenant winning a Navy Cross at Guadalcanal) while on medical leave after recovering from a Kamikaze hit off Okinawa.

This was now 1954, and when the French lost at Dienbeinphu, he was ordered from Japan, together with the USS Montrose (APA 212) to steam into Haiphong to begin removing the refugees that the Partition Talks had allowed to leave. (Both sides were given one year to get north or south and then the DMZ would be sealed). I will not bore you with what the Viet Min did to the people who wanted to go south, but the medical officer onboard the Montrose wrote a book that is deliberately ignored by those people wishing to explain our actions as a mistake. It was a best seller at the time, "Deliver Us from Evil" by Dr. Tom Dooley, with a follow-up "Fire on the Mountain." My Dad spent 18 months slipping small landing craft into unwatched inlets in the north, and pulling refugees off the beaches to transport to the south. The pictures he brought back were horrifying, and matched some that illustrate Dooley's book.

Now lets fast forward, 1967, and I'm working a day job while taking 12 credit hours at night at a local college. McNamara has decided that the draft numbers are too low, and reduced the standards for being drafted across the board, (this program was called Project 100,000). Cassius Clay had previously taken a draft physical and was rejected for failing the GCT (IQ test) with a score of 78. Now he was eligible for the draft and after being contacted by Elijah Mohammad, decides he does want to fight (at least where his size means nothing but a bigger target). To my knowledge he never spent one day in jail, but was stripped of his boxing title. I am also unaware as to any statement he made about being a pacifist until after he was drafted, certainly not in the two years that preceded his rejection the first time.

I too was drafted (for not carrying 15 credit hours as a full time student), and upon reporting to Petersburg, was further picked up by the Marines. After tales too long to be told, I was commissioned from the ranks, with only two years of college, and as the youngest Second Lieutenant in the Corps at the time (21 by two days at commissioning, and sworn in by my father, a privilege extended to sons of officers) I soon left for Viet Nam, some fifteen years after my father.

I ended up as the 1st Platoon Commander in Kilo Company, Third Battalion, Third Marine Regiment, of the Third Division (known to the informed as K/3/3). And our AO was the area comprising Con Thien, Gio Lin, Qua Viet and Cam Lo, bordered on the north by the DMZ. The Platoon Commander of the 2nd Platoon, was an Naval Academy graduate by the name of Oliver North, though we never called him that; he was known to us as "Blue" since the brevity code for "north" was "Blue" (south being "Red" etc. Thereby hangs a tale for another occasion...

I will only make a couple of comments germane to this thread.

1. I hold no approbation for Sen. Kerrey in the deaths of the civilians, only in his acceptance of the Bronze Star for doing it. I knew several in my outfit, including myself, who were faced with the exact same choice and choose honor over a cheap acceptance. The killing of civilians was sometimes unavoidable (The NVA drove women and children before them on several attacks at Cam Lo and the first time we shot them down like flies, the second time I set Claymores out from the perimeter and let the villagers pass up to our wire while shooting over their heads. Then we set my Claymores off, disemboweling the following NVA. The next morning we set the surviving NVA on fire with AV-gas and called in no body count... only a brush cleaning operation outside the wire.)

2. For many of those who were in the service during the Viet Nam War, they never got anywhere near the fighting and yet they claim to be affected. It took ten men in service support roles to sustain one man on the front. I noted for years that blacks claimed to have died at a greater rate in the "White Mans War Against the Yellow". That lie is statistically destroyed when it is pointed out that, unlike earlier wars, we know every man that died or was wounded. Blacks made up 12 percent of the American population, 55% of the combat arms and only 11% of the actual casualties. These guys were not at the point of anybody's spear. Many of these guys were standing around a fire barrel when they got drafted, and when their service was done; they went back to standing around the fire barrel. Viet Nam did not prevent them from becoming brain surgeons or captains of industry.

3. I wonder why, whenever there's a story like this, there is a rush to hear what the vets have to say, yet when the Killing Fields were exposed, or Bosnian or Rwandan graves dug up, no one stops an old hippy, or a Better Red than Dead type for his comments. "What did you do in the War, Daddy? Well son, I was convenient…"

4. Finally, as a bizarre counterpoint to this thread, the history magazine American Heritage has this month's feature " How We WON the Vietnam War".

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:55 PM

Doug, that is my point. I did not mean to imply that others have no right to an opinion on the subject in general. They do and I defend that right. But those that postulate on motive, or seek to attack his works since without the perspective of the experience lack credibility. Kerry has made no attempt to hide this, and the fact that a different member of the team remembers it differently really have no bearing. Those perspectives, too, are colored by the dyes of a 1000 life experiences. If the objective is to learn from the past, fine. If it is an attempt to tear down an honorable man living with experiences from this time in his life, that is not fine. Kerry is a warrior of the first order, with a social conscience. He, like many of us, got caught up in something that exposed us to experiences and reactions that we would give anything to get shet of.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Troll
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:33 PM

Thanks Mick.

troll

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:23 PM

Mick: you state your views so well. The only slight disagreement I have with your message is with the first couple of sentences. True, one who has not experienced a war cannot consider himself an expert on the subject. However, given the order to report for active duty back in 1951, I have absolutely no doubt but that I would have done so. How I would have acquitted myself in combat is something I will never know. I have often wondered though. Likely I would have found myself the deepest hole I could find, and burrowed in. I do not viewe myself as the Audie Murphy, Bob Kerry or Rambo type.

DougR

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:14 PM

John Hardly, I didn't mean to imply that the Republicans are behind the Kerry exposure. I don't think they are. I think some reporter saw an opportunity for an expose`. It may have even been brought to his/her attention by the one member of Kerry's squad whose story does not jibe with the Senator's and the balance of the team. Who knows. It probably will come out at some point where it all started.

I am a Republican, and have high regard for the former senator.

DougR

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:52 PM

It is easy to look backwards, using as a frame of reference your personal biases on the issue instead of the experience of having been there. Comments on both sides of this issue from that type of perspective have very little validity in the debate on the character of the man. They may be valid in the orbit of theoretical or philosophical debate, but not in the broader debate of the times. My feelings on the conflict that was mine have been voiced elsewhere and have gotten more attention than they deserved. But let me say this about this act. It is horrific to ponder................and it happened more often than admitted. Not only that, but it happened in more than just the Vietname conflict. Young men, who yesterday were playing in fields and imagining the great things that they would do one day, are thrown into the maelstrom of combat, filled with a soup of patriotic upbringing, boot camp indoctrination, love of family and friends, fear, terror, revulsion..........and they react under the most horrific conditions one can imagine. Survival is paramount............and they react. Your own brothers did things that if you knew, you would be shocked. They did things that if you knew, you would be filled with pride. And then they came home, forever changed, carrying weights and burdens that none should be forced to carry. And there is no shedding the load. Then one must either walk the path, or begin the slow rot process of dying. Former Senator Kerry was clearly involved in an action that he must now carry throughout his existence. But to get the measure of the man, one must look at his entire life. One cannot isolate on this horrific time. It is but one page in a book. Books are for learning. This is an honorable man who paid a terrible price for his valor. He has since set about the business of trying to live a life that has merit. Perfect? Not by a long shot. I have many disagreements with his policies and actions. Respect him? You betcherfectinarse I do. I know of his valor and heart. Nam is now a book for learning..........the wise will read it. If you can find criminals........prosecute them. But leave the warriors alone. They have and continue to suffer enough.

Mick

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:32 PM

This is hard for a <40 year old to understand because their personal point of historical referrence understands communism to be no threat--something that, though not among the majority of mudcatters, was undecided 40 years ago.

DougR may be right that it's brought up just as a ploy of dirty politics but..if so..republicans have learned NOTHING in the last decade. There is no moral scandle so vile as to sway a democrat from voting democrat. The only moral, personal, or military scandle that has the possibility of gaining traction in today's politics is one involving a republican.

On the surface that may sound inflamatory but I think it's accurate. I can think of any number of shamed republicans and only one democrat (Don Rostenkowski) who ever payed a price for public scandle--maybe Hart..though he just didn't know that he could have continued..he just withdrew.

I had three older brothers drafted from '69-'72, one of whom went to VN. I would CO if given the same set of circustances, but I have the benefit of hindsight.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:01 PM

Sorry, we cross posted Doug........Thanks for the background and the insights.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:56 PM

Ted's second paragraph ties in exactly with PT's post and brings the experience from the personal to the global. And should we make it through the reins of power held by this generation, from what has the next learned? Perhaps it is as you say, without end. Geeziz.....I was in a pretty good mood when when I first got up this morning..................

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:55 PM

DougR: don't apologize, I read every word and wished it was longer. I didn't know about the 1948 act, and so it was good to learn about it, and to hear your experience.

I am from the post-vietnam generation (I was 13 when the war ended in 1975), and have never served in the military under any circumstances (I was in the NROTC for a year and a half, and then decided the Navy wasn't for me -- partly because I spent my entire 3c cruise seasick, and partly because of (what I saw as) the ingrained, systemic racism in the ship I was on).

I consider myself very lucky, and certainly don't consider it meritorious, that I have never had to be in a position to decide to take another human's life. And very grateful for those who have had to stand there, to protect the freedoms I hold so dear.

This all starts to sound a little treacly, but it's very sincere.

Alex

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:48 PM

Bert: of course you are right, Ali did go to jail, and there must have been others. I had not read the thread Spaw just posted (but I will) so I didn't know he was among those who was one of them.

Spaw: of course I still consider you a friend! We disagree on several points of view at times, but that doesn't affect my feeling of friendship for you. The same is true of Rick, Kendall, heck, probably the majority of my fellow mudcatters.

I was too young for WW2, just by a couple of years. I, and most of my friends were sorely disappointed that we were not born "in time" to participate in that war. There were C.O.s then too, but I didn't know any.

I volunteered for the Army under the selective service act of 1948, a short-lived law that allowed boys who joined the service during their eighteenth year to serve their military obligation with one year of active service and either four years in the active reserve, or six years in the inactive reserve. The act was short-lived because it was anticipated that a large number of volunteers would re-enlist when their one year of active service was up. As it turned out, almost nobody re-enlisted, even though we were offered advances in rank that prewar enlisted men had to serve many years in order to reach that rank. I joined with three of my buddies and we served with the 2nd Amored Division at Camp Hood (now Ft. Hood) Texas.

It was our intent to join the inactive reserve, but a scruffy old Colonel practically ordered us to join the National Guard in our hometown, and still fearful of high ranking officers, we did just that. For us, it was fortuitous decision.

My one year of active service erased any preconceived notions that war was glorius and glamorous. Night manuevers took care of that. Had we succeeded in joining the inactive reserve, when the Korean conflict begain, we would have been called immediately back to active duty, as were all of my former 2nd Armored Division buddies who became inactive reserves. I learned later that after a week or two of brush-up training, they were shipped to Korea, and most of them died in the Inchon landings.

The 36th Infantry Divison (Texas National Guard) was put on alert during the Korean conflict, but was not called up. Therefore, I was fortunate enough to serve five years of military service (four of them reserve) without becoming involved in any war.

Sorry for the thread creep, and for the length of this message, but I thought it might clarify my position if you knew the background. The point being that had my National Guard Division been called up, it never would have occurred to me, not to go. This was in the 1950s, and the attitudes of young people were much different than they were in the 1960s. Not saying it was better, just that it was different.

I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone with my comments. They are just my opinon.

Frankly, if Senator Kerry has presidential aspirations, as many believe he has, it is probably good that this thing came out now. By the time the campaign for President begins (a few weeks ago), it will be behind him.

Sorry again for the length, and for the creep.

DougR

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:34 PM

A couple things, just to be clear, this former Senator Robert Kerrey of Nebraska we are talking about--not Senator John Kerry of Massachussetts, who was the Captain of a gunboat in the Mekong Delta and returned to fight against the war himself--oddly enough, he seems to have also received the silver star, bronze star, and purple heart--

To those who want to put this behind and move on, I have a bit of bad news--as the years go on, you will be hearing more about this all, not less--the memories return with age, and on occasion, things that seem to have been left behind can become as vivid as if they had happened yesterday--There is no getting away from any of it--

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:25 PM

I think CP's experience did good, simply because the whole experience will not, and should not be let go. It is continuing to be used as a touchstone of practically everything in American politics, and the rest of the world has to watch this psychodrama being played out. That generation, for better or worse, is now taking on the reins of supreme political power in the world. John McCain nearly became president because of the aura of being a prisoner; we have already heard about Bob Kerry's presidential prospects; the situation in Kosovo and much of the world now depends on Colin Powell's version of what America learned in Vietnam. And many lessons have been learned totally perversely: What is American doing in Colombia?

America is now more or less a global military empire, and so the ethics of the military and the war and who did what to whom are absolutely crucial, in part because as far as I can tell none of the subsequent military adventures seem to have taught anyone anything, because humiliation is the only way very powerful people are forced to face reality.

I wish it weren't so, but it won't be let go: in the same way that World War II ruled the next generation, and World War I the generation before that. The lessons learned were often wrong, misguided, and so on. But that can only be helped by the presentation of things that make people unhappy, and wreck the neatness of the story. Like people going to jail, or going to Canada. Or finding yourself a week after landing in the middle of nowhere walking into a hut where you have just killed 14 women and chidren.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 11:15 AM

Well Doug my friend (and I would hope you still are).......I suppose your attitude toward what the motives of people were is still pretty common, but I think it's invalid and not based on any certain knowledge....just a leftover, as is the story of Sen. Kerrey. You were possibly on a hiatus when we ran this thread. Read it...and though I would not expect it to change your inner feelings, perhaps it will give you some insights to what was happening then.

I did not go to prison to be safe. Safe isn't a word anyone who has been to prison would use to describe it. Peterburg Federal Prison was not a safe place. My motives are outlined clearly in the other thread, but let me reiterate here that many DID choose to try to effect change by making the strongest statement we could at the time. Did it do any good? In hindsight, I still cannot say or even know. Courage did not enter into the decision and I would submit that it did not enter into the decisions that anyone made back then!

(From the other thread)
Back then I was as American as you got. For whatever made the place really suck (and the government was a start) it was still home and I felt a duty to it. Duty in my case took on a different meaning, but it was still a problem that stemmed from somewhere I loved and had not given up on.

I'd also like to change the thought process a bit as some of us looked at the situation then and other situations too, not as something worth dying for, but was (and is) it something worth killing for? That was at the heart of my thinking then and still remains so today. I am not necessarily a pacifist, though I admire many. However, if you have a gun and I have a gun and we're stalking each other, rest assured I am going to do my damndest to kill you first. This is what young people are asked to do in any war. I came to the belief that there was nothing worth killing for about VietNam. Others came to a similar realization after they were there and hence the abundant cases of post traumatic stress. Others wars are different and each one must be decided by the people involved.....Is it worth killing for? If you are going to put me in the situation of killing someone else before they kill me, you better have a damn good reason so I can live with myself afterwards.

When I refused to play and was arrested, the sentences were running at 5 years, out in about 3. By the time I was sentenced, it was down to 3 years and out in 18 months. After serving 7 months at Petersburg, it was reduced to 15 months and out in 6, so I was paroled. A short time later, they were down to a year and out in 3-6 months. We were a pain in the ass to the government! But if more had done it, could they have withstood the pain?

I would say once again, it is time to let it go.....not forget, but to let it go. We owe what we learned to our children...........and I hope we learned well. Perhaps we didn't.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 10:56 AM

Doug R, I did not bring the war back up again, I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy involved. Why should this be let lie?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Hollowfox
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 10:44 AM

The one C.O. I know who went to jail rather than Vietnam went to jail because of his beliefs. Unlike others I know, he was not allowed to do alternative service (work in a hospital, etc), and was sent from Minnesota to a "hard-time" prison in Texas. I don't know why this was, perhaps he was being made an "example" for other potential C.O.'s. He was a man of principle, and although I haven't seen him for some time, I know from mutual friends and from his published writings that he still is.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 10:12 AM

I believe it's terribly unfair to assert that the people who went to jail rather than serve in the war did so to save themselves. Maybe some did. Maybe some got their dad's to get them positions in the national guard for the same reason.

Then again, maybe those who chose to go to jail had come to the realization that the war was wrong. Maybe they decided "not to show up" because they knew that to be the only way to put an end to this war, and possibly to all war. Maybe.

It is not for us to judge people who made choices during a very difficult time, unless their subsequent behavior betrays them as hypocrites or cowards. That goes for those who served, those who stayed home and those who chose expatriation. We all live with the knowledge of the choices we have made. Senator Kerry has had to live with a lot more than a fool like me. He faced a lot more, that's for sure. I wish he would have spoken about this before he was forced to (this has been done to head off a magazine article on the subject, you know), but I'm sure he had his reasons not to. Most men who serve honorably don't relish talking about their experiences at the front. He has lived well in his public life and I admire him for facing up to his sense of duty during the war, during his time in congress and today.

Bart

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 09:59 AM

DougR - You misunderstood what I posted. I agreed with PeterT - Kerry didn't deserve a medal for killing women and children; I also agreed with Spaw - It's time to put it behind us, not forget but move on,; and I agreed with Allan - everyone was touched by Viet Nam and no one is the better for it. As far as I am concerned, Kerry's experiences make him the ideal candidate for the presidency if only because he will think long and hard before committing our young people to war. Kerry did nothing wrong. Neither did Calley. Both were betrayed by bureaucrats.

You said: "But digging up this stuff thirty or so years after it happened is crappy in my opinion"...that is exactly what I meant by picking scabs. Let it heal and let the scar serve as a reminder.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Dahlin
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 09:39 AM

How many centuries wil it take for us to realize that there is never a just or clean war.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 08:35 AM

I never served in a war, so maybe I don't have a right to say much about this. But I believe that all wars are horrible, and that this kind of stuff happens in all of them. That includes World War II ("The Good War"), Korea, the Gulf War, and any others people care to mention. The Vietnam War had its own unique aspects, of course, but let's not fall into the trap of believing that Vietnam was some sort of anomaly in that respect. I think this is the point Kerrey is making in some of his remarks -- it is a brutal, chaotic, horrifying affair, no matter who the enemy is or how well justified our involvement is.

If the purpose of bringing this up is to castigate and humiliate the participans all these years later, I would say we shouldn't bother. The only value in bringing it up is if it reminds us what war really is, so we can renew our determination to avoid it. Myths about "clean" wars are just that -- myths. If you believe that we have ever fought a war without descending to this level of brutality, you've been sold a bill of goods. While I respect the pacifists among us, I'm not saying that we should never fight in any wars. But let's recognize the beast for what it is, rather than try to pretend that the horror of Vietnam was unique.

Sherman, who was well acquainted with war, said it best over a hundred years ago: "War is hell." We've just been given another example so we can ponder what those three words really mean.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Bert
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 01:12 AM

Doug, I thought that Mohammed Ali Went to jail. And there must have been others.
Also I remember the 'conchies' in WWII, they suffered tremendous humiliation for their beliefs (even after the war). I certainly wouldn't have been brave enough to do what they did. I would have much preferred to have taken my chances on the battlefield. But fortunately for me I never had that choice. Too young for WWII and Korea, and deferred until Britain had gotten over their involvement in Cyprus and Aden.

Which would you prefer, take a chance at getting shot or know with certainty that you will be reviled as a coward because you are a pacifist? Of course, if you are NOT a pacifist and have not seen what they have suffered then you may have a different opinion.

I admire Big Mick a lot. He went out there and lived the horror of it, and came back and can still respect those who disagreed with the war. Now that takes honesty and courage.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: paddymac
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:58 AM

I wonder if this story would ever have "broken" if it had not involved a prominent personage? SEAL teams, and their counterparts in other branches, aren't trained to be altar boys. The one's who shoot first and ask questions later have a greater probability of surviving, and survival is what it's all about at the personal level.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 12:04 AM

Neil, I was with you until you got to the part where you anoint those who went to jail as courageous, rather than go to Vietnam. Didn't they go to jail to ensure their safety?

Why do you feel they are as courageous as those who did go? I'm really curious. Frankly, I have no recollection of any of the protesters going to jail anyway. I thought they all fled to Canada.

DougR

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:01 PM

I spent seventeen years in the navy. My war was with Iraq and all the little piss ant actions inbetween Vietnam and Iraq. I don't know that i would have said anything in Senator Kerry's place even 35 years after the fact. There is crap my wife doesn't know and it is likely i will never tell her. I don't think she needs to know that her husband had to clean someones brains off his face after they got stupid for one second and that was peace time. I sure the hell don't think I would be telling people. "Oh Gee, we got in a fire fight and capped civilians" We don't know what went through. It like every war was ugly. Maybe uglier than some but they all are including the Gulf War. It took courage to go and do your duty. Conversely, the people who went to jail rather than go to Vietnam were also courageous in their own way. The ones who gall me are the ones who fled to Canada or parts futher extant and think themselves martyrs. The marytrs are the fifty some odd thousand that died fighting a war that was in my personal opinion the wrong war for uncaring, incompetent politicians who had no better goal or strategy than to "Stop Communism" That ain't a goal that's a bumper sticker. Unfortunately they came home to a hostile populous after spending a minimum of thirteen months in a hostile fire zone. So I'll tell you what, if Bob Kerry runs for president, I'll vote for him and I'll salute him and mean it when I do. I believe he did his best in a horrific situation and if it took thirty some odd years to tell his story, that is no ones business but his. He's done well as a senator and I think he is a basically honest guy. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:45 PM

Peter T.; Sinsull, why can't you give it up! The war is over! Bob Kerry did nothing wrong. McGrath is right. If a wrong was done, it was done by the military command. And who knows, perhaps those civilians WERE actively involved as Viet Cong! We'll never know. But digging up this stuff thirty or so years after it happened is crappy in my opinion. What do you think should be done to Kerry? Should charges be brought against him? Should we hang him?

Jeeze! DougR

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From:
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 10:32 PM

whoever said this isn't for women don't know the women I know. mg

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:55 PM

You're right Peter. So is Spaw. So is Allan. I feel like I am pulling scabs off a wound that had finally begun to heal. And it isn't the first time.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:43 PM

I'm sorry, I don't follow this. Bob Kerrey killed women and children and got a medal for it, and never said a word for 35 years. And now he is courageous. Please. The rest of the article is full of old tired familiar lies as if no one has learned anything: The Phoenix Project, "clearing civilians", "effectively neutralize", "Viet Cong political operators and sympathizers", i.e. the people of Southern Vietnam. Where is Robert McNamara when you want someone to throw up on?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:00 PM

Surely the real point here isn't that there was a massacre of non-combatants, but that the people who carried it out, without meaning to, reported what had happened honestly, and it was covered up by a lying war-machine for political reasons, and they've kept it covered up all these years, like they have kept far worse things covered up.

The people who pulled the triggers were young men obeying orders and in fear of their lives. The people who told the lies and ordered the cover-up, and gave the orders were sitting in offices, safe and warm and a long way from the shooting. Making up euphemisms like "collateral damage" that helped people like Timothy McVeigh psych himself up for his freelance massacre.

"We wouldn't be in these kinds of messes if people wouldn't talk." That's completely the wrong way about. The best hope of keeping out of those kind of messes is for the truth to come out. (And aside from that cover-ups and denying the truth causes enormous damage to vets who got caught up in this kind of thing. But the authorities don't give a damn about what happens to them.)

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 07:52 PM

M. Ted--

By my periodization, there was only one massacre in Viet Nam. It started when the Japanese left in '45 and slackened up a bit when Saigon fell in '75. I don't want to be understood as trying to justify this mess, but I think there was one thing about 'the Nam' as opposed to other more conventional wars that promoted this kind of tragedy. Namely, a lot more of our casualties were from booby traps, snipers, etc., which gave you no target for return fire. Sooner or later, people taking damage from unseen enemies take it out on whoever is handy. Maybe the mental process is parallel to what domestic abusers do in their heads. The scary part to me is the willingness of higher commanders, whose asses were not directly on the line, to rationalize, ignore, deny, and/or misinterpret such incidents in the name of body count. Behind them are civilians who think a "just" war is possible and who believe war can and should be conducted like football, with rules, referees, and all body parts cordially labelled and returned after the last shot is fired. The whole thing is a such a drekky mess that even a "gentleman's war" would be obscene.

C.C. The entertainer formerly known as "Yellow Two Six," in Phan Thiet City, 1969-70.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: DougR
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:58 PM

I don't know what good purpose reporting stories like this serves. I believe it is only one of perhaps hundreds of similar events that took place in every war ever thought.

I think former Senator Kerry is a fine many who served his country well, in the military and in the United States Senate. The only reason, it would seem to me, to report this story is to discredit him in some way. I think it's a shame. The burden of carrying such a load is punishment enough.

DougR

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:42 PM

Allan......BINGO.....Well put.

Guest.....I couldn't agree more and have writtenvirtually the same thing in other threads. If we both have guns and you are out there to kill me, I'm going to try to kill you first...........it's survival. If I am asked to do this, then I think somebody owes me a damn good explanation of why I'm there in the first place. During VietNam, it came to most of us at different times.......some before they went, some when they were there, some when they got home, and some many years later.

It's time to let VietNam go...........not to forget, but to let it go. We hope we have learned, we probably haven't.......we should not forget.........but its time to let it go.

Spaw

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:27 PM

I'm sure Korea was no different than any other "conflict" (it was never officially a war) but unless you were at one time or another on the front and at the thick of things, you will NEVER realize that in war you kill things before they kill you. And when you are 19 the power to live is rather strong. Therefore, you kill things. They may be animals who make the wrong kind of noise or they may be people. And believe me, at that moment you DO NOT check their ID to see if they are military or civilian. Instead you do what you think you have to do to stay alive. Then you find out you shot 2 soldiers and a ten year old kid. Do you really think you are ever going to share that bit of information with anyone?? Do you ever wonder why some ex GI's are drunks?? Can you really blame them for being angry for doing the dirty work of national leaders who got them to join for God and Country and then found out those were code names for the very rich?? Do you really think the people who got this country involved in the wars give a good goddamn about a few of the poor "lower class" that died??

And when you get back "home" you have two choices. Let it destroy you and those around you, or bury it so deep it NEVER comes to the surface, not even to one single other human being, and live your life as though you never served in the military.

Except when you can be anonymous on mudcat.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:19 PM

War is hell - hey I'm not to blame...

(Is that correct Dylan quoting)

Sounds awful anyway. Just we could all live with each other and so avoid these atrocities anyway.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 05:35 PM

Roger, You posted this:

Martha Gellhorn ...

........She was among the first to identify the Vietnam atrocity as "a new kind of war" against civilians. "Is this an honourable way," she wrote, "for a great nation to fight a war 8,000 miles from its safe homeland?" For this, the American press suppressed her articles and the US military saw to it that she was banned from south Vietnam. She was too dangerous. She was a truthful witness on the side of the underdog............

And it occurs to me that the best response to it is to say that you cannot be both a truthful witness and also take a side, even if it is that of "the underdog"--

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Allan C.
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 05:29 PM

Hollowfox, I have yet to meet anyone who lived through the Vietnam War years who wasn't messed up by it one way or another. Some actually were there. Some were killed there. Some had friends, family, neighbors who served there and for whom many prayers and about whom many worries were had. Some were doing all they could to end the war. Some were doing all they could to indicate their lack of support for it. Some ate their TV dinners and tried to pretend that the evening news reports didn't bother them. Some were happy to be able to have continued with college in order to evade the draft. Some were already in the armed services and wondered if they would be transferred from their stateside duties to a tour in Vietnam.

The list goes on and on. We were all touched by the war. It messed up all of us.

I know for certain that there are far more horrific stories than the one cited here that remain untold. I bear no malice toward those who were there. I thank each and every one of them for what they endured. War is horrible. It should be. If it were nicer, we'd have a lot more of them.

My favorite teeshirt quote from the war years was:

Suppose they gave a war and nobody came?

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 05:07 PM

I still see the pretty young man with blond hair and blue eyes who used to dress all in white and follow me around the campus adoringly. He was dead less than a week after setting foot in Viet Nam.

I wonder if we will ever get the whole truth about Viet Nam...

No child of mine, no grandchild of mine will ever go to war to defend anything but American soil and maybe Canada. Narrow thinking and stupid? I agree. But I don't trust our politicians to spend the lives of our children wisely or honestly.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 04:51 PM

...OK so I have just been told that its Cambodia where they are still clearing up the cluster bombs - which are still blowing peoples limbs off.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Hollowfox
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 04:33 PM

Y'know, Spaw, I have yet to meet anybody who served in Vietnam who didn't get messed up by it some way or another.

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 04:30 PM

I know what I am saying may cause great offence, yet non is meant, but the country was trashed for what exactly?

......Martha Gellhorn ...

........She was among the first to identify the Vietnam atrocity as "a new kind of war" against civilians. "Is this an honourable way," she wrote, "for a great nation to fight a war 8,000 miles from its safe homeland?" For this, the American press suppressed her articles and the US military saw to it that she was banned from south Vietnam. She was too dangerous. She was a truthful witness on the side of the underdog............

John Pilger

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 04:06 PM

Enter Tom Paxton in the search box.........lots of stuff. Basically, he is a war vet and one of the greatest songwriters to emerge from the folk scare of the 60's. His breadth and girth of material is remarkable and his songs are second to none....on almost every subject. Roger, you say......

If I have to go war, I would like to know the real reasons behind that war first, and I hope the poor bastards trying to kill me will know why they are there too.

Go back and read some of the other threads on Vietnam.....like Songs of the Vietnam period......and you'll see that what made VietNam different was that many young people came to the realization at different times that perhaps the government we trusted and believed in and had been honorable in other wars, was somehow not telling the truth anymore. We grew up believing in our country and knew the stories of WWII, of Ira Hayes and Audie Murphy amd all those folks like our parents who fought that war. That's the black and white we knew. Suddenly it seemed the blacks and whites were all grays and like the good fans of Davy Crockett that we were, we knew "a man has to do what he thinks is right." In a variety of different ways we did and made choices as 18 or 20 year olds based on what we knew and what we were seeing. Its no accident that there is more post traumatic stress from that war than any other. Read what you wrote and think about the end result.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 03:48 PM

I am ploughing my way through a book by Pilger at the moment and it depresses the hell out of me. Seems on every page there is a new insight. If I have to go war, I would like to know the real reasons behind that war first, and I hope the poor bastards trying to kill me will know why they are there too. Any of you read Pilgers book???

Who is Tom Paxton anyhow? On the radio right now there is some mention that his songs were not popular with officialdom, are they good

roger

Subject: RE: Another Vietnam Massacre Emerges
From: LR Mole
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 03:46 PM

But you're not the only one...

Subject: war sucks...
From: cait
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 03:21 PM

definitely a male thread...it's as if women don't feel the right to raise their voices about something they had little to do with. but, don't they, really?

women and children have always been the 'innocent' victims of war. why do i say innocent? because it's not our thing, we're trying to raise our children, giving them the right vitamins, getting their teeth straightened and worrying over their upbringing...for why? to send them off as cannon fodder? imagine trying to do your nurturing thing in the middle of a goddamn war.

not bloody likely.

why am i against the idea of women in combat? not for the conventional reasons, if men can't handle themselves around women that's their problem...i'm against people in combat.

call me a dreamer...

*caiti*