BS: From Bruce O.

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 May 01 - 02:27 AM

"And they returned to their tea and scandal as was their ancient custom." Congreve 1670-1729

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: RWilhelm
Date: 09 May 01 - 12:09 AM

First do the research, then we'll talk.

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Bill D
Date: 09 May 01 - 12:08 AM

"all rules of charity and courtesy suddenly stop applying "

whoever suggested that? ..tsk..

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: mousethief
Date: 08 May 01 - 11:38 PM

When I'm 70 years old, if I do a lot of research into folk music and share my knowledge freely, will all rules of charity and courtesy suddenly stop applying to me, too? Cool. I shall look forward to it.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 01 - 11:19 PM

All of what you say may be true, Malcolm. But what if the idea I submitted is the only one that works?

I'm not saying it would or wouldn't. But what if it did? What if it could make the forum less contentious? Would you say no to it because the esthetics of it don't please you?

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 May 01 - 11:01 PM

To be fair, the "BS" prefix was established so that people could indicate that a thread was not about music.  To require people to use a special prefix to show that a thread is about music would tend rather to prove the contention that the Mudcat is becoming an ordinary chatroom rather than a place to discuss music.  I can't believe that only "serious scholars", whatever that might mean, want to talk about music, and see no reason to change an established set of labelling conventions which would probably work quite well if people bothered to use them.

After a couple of years here (if I include the initial "lurking" period which used to be considered an appropriate preliminary so that one might get a reasonable idea of the way things were done in a place before intervening in it) I have certainly noticed that a lot of threads nowadays are started by bored people who have nothing much to say or contribute, but who nevertheless insist upon doing it, often at great length.  They also often insist on adding to threads such as this one, in spite of the fact that they have very little idea of what is involved, or of who they are talking about.  Please note that this is a general observation, and should not be taken as a personal comment on anyone in particular.  Most of the posts in this case seem to be intelligent and well-considered.  As in most things, it's a question of balance.  There is room for everybody, but only if certain accommodations are at least tacitly agreed, and acted upon.

I count myself as one of those who will miss Bruce's presence here, and regrets his departure; I hope that he will eventually feel able to come back.  It is worth mentioning that a number of people have felt it necessary, over the last couple of years, to announce their departure in this fashion; very few of them have contributed even a fraction of what Bruce has.  Many of them have come back, sometimes on the same day.  It is in no way unusual.

As to the "Guest #1" business, I can only say that I paid little attention to it, and so do not have much idea what was going on.  I can't imagine that it could possibly have begun to measure up to the kind of nastiness that has occurred here in the past.  Maybe it was a deciding factor for some people, maybe not.  Bruce is about the same age as my father; if you can't be a bit impatient with younger people who think they know it all once in a while when you get into your 70s, when the hell can you?

Perhaps the rest of us, me included, would do well to be a little less self-important and judgemental than we sometimes are.  We are all dispensible.  Very few of us, though, will ever contribute as much to the sum of knowledge available here -and elsewhere- as Bruce has done.  I hope that everybody will remember that.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 01 - 09:52 PM

radriano,

Would you feel less angry if things were set up like this...

Subject: RE: BS: or not BS? A suggestion
From: CarolC
Date: 08-May-01 - 09:37 PM

In my first post to this thread, I suggested that people who want to start threads that are specifically of a serious musical nature could have a heading that they could use at their descretion.

So far, no one has given any reason why this practice should not be adopted.

It seems to me that it would be just about the only thing that would placate the serious music scholars (short of eliminating all non-music discussion) because it gives them control of the situation. They would then be the ones upon whom it would be incumbant to use the designation or not.

And if they didn't use it, they'd have no one to blame but themselves.

Can anyone give me any good reasons why it shouldn't be done this way?

...And I forgot to mention the idea that the filter could be changed so that rather than filtering out the BS, it would filter in only the threads with the designation for serious musical discussion.

And the scholars could look at only what was allowed into the filter with this designation.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: marty D
Date: 08 May 01 - 08:05 PM

I can hardly believe the anger that an issue like this stirs up in some, after all I HOPE this is supposed to be our HOBBY and not some kind of basic training before we're sent off to war. It seems though that some people value scholarship, far more than politeness or common courtesy. My own profession has a lot of that, BUT we don't have an internet site that calls itself a CAFE, and unless I'm mistaken, Mudcat has "chat" prominently displayed up top, along with an auction etc. Most of the anger seems to be coming from people who think that the site has become frivolous. Well there wasn't a sign saying "only folklorists welcome." And there certainly wasn't a warning stating "Humor and wit not welcome here". If you want this forum to be more "serious" then you're going to have to put up some signs to keep the rest of us out.

marty

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Jeri
Date: 08 May 01 - 07:09 PM

The TV station loses a viewer, but at least the ones left won't complain anymore about what's on. The viewers who remain (and in Mudcat's case, the viewers ARE the programmers) lose someone with a different opinion than theirs, and the one who left loses the feeling that anyone cared what he/she had to say.

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: mousethief
Date: 08 May 01 - 06:46 PM

And so you don't watch TV any more. They continue to provide programming for the great unwashed, and you find better things to do. Who loses?

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Jeri
Date: 08 May 01 - 06:40 PM

If you find too may shows you don't like, eventually you stop turning the TV on. Possibly, you complain to the network or channel first. You'll probably wind up with the TV off, because the folks you complain to don't want to hear anything negative about their scheduling. Not only will they refuse to consider any changes to programming, but they'll probably tell you to quit complaining as well.

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: radriano
Date: 08 May 01 - 06:18 PM

I know, Nutty, I know. For a long time now I've been calmly not posting and just ignoring threads I'm not interested in. But guidelines about labelling threads are not followed - you often have to open a thread to find out what it's really about. Some posters deliberately try to mislead you so you'll open the thread.

Yes, I'm disappointed. And if this is indeed an open forum then I should be able to say that.

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: GUEST,Annoyed
Date: 08 May 01 - 05:48 PM

Can you (pl) not just leave if you are so pissed off instead of constantly harping on about being so. Do you like the sound of your own keyboard's rattling?

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 08 May 01 - 05:18 PM

I'm a hardcore music and instrument related poster, but I need a break from musical discussions every so often, just as in 3D life, or it would drive me nuts. I do however try and be selective about what BS threads I contribute to, or start.

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: nutty
Date: 08 May 01 - 05:13 PM

It only will if you let it radriano.
Maybe I am fortunate but I haven't met many pissers or moaners on this site ........ the majority have been warm, caring individuals who are very generous with their help and support ......... some even post to BS threads and I would totally defend their right to do so.

You don't expect a TV channel to only broadcast programmes that you are interested in ..... you have an off switch for the ones you don't like (or you change to another channel) Why should a web site be any different??
Surely the same principles apply.

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: radriano
Date: 08 May 01 - 04:28 PM

I can't blame Bruce one bit for how he feels.

I used to look forward with delight to logging on to Mudcat. Nowadays I often log on and log off without opening one thread. Why? Most of the threads these days are "best of..", "worst of.." and now, of all things, there's an Amway thread. And when did people start logging on as other people just to stir up trouble? I wish those people interested in nothing other than mental masterbation would go elsewhere. Mudcat has a lot of potential but it is being buried in total crap right now.

It seems to me that Bruce O. has contributed much more than many other people to Mudcat. If this keeps up Mudcat will soon be nothing more than a chatroom for all the pissers and moaners out there.

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Frank McGrath
Date: 07 May 01 - 04:52 PM

The Mudcat is a wonderful resource because of the people who created it and the people who contribute to it. Sure there is a lot of "stuff" here that doesn't interest me and it can be a pain at times going through threads looking for the gems of information which are of interest to me. But, to me, it is a small price to pay.

Bruce is an exceptional resource and has enriched the database here with excellent information and I do hope he will return.

Frank McGrath

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 May 01 - 03:54 PM

Momentarily, that is the biggest load of shite yet. I have left the Mudcat because it wasn't serving my needs at the moment, or I just had other things to do. I have gotten emails wondering where I was. I have also gotten, since the start of this thread, no fewer than 15 emails from people indicating to me that they felt that this is a bunch of crap, as was the treatment of two of our finest members. And when I decided to not hang out here for a bit in order to refresh myself, I did it without fanfare. So coming back was easy. If one truly understands this place, then they don't try to mold it, rather they just enjoy/or not enjoy it as it is. And if one cares about it, as I and many others do, then they don't take actions that hurt the place. Like some great "leaving" thread, as if that would make any difference.

I will say it again. Bruce's scholarship will be missed. He is a wonderful resource. Fortunately that is still available elsewhere. His obsessive need to change this place into something that it isn't won't be missed at all. And if his past actions are any measure, he will still monitor the place, probably post under an alias, and eventually return. I only hope that in the meantime he re-examines his motives in attacking persons instead of issues.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Ian HP
Date: 07 May 01 - 03:44 PM

Bruce, I left Mudcat some years ago because I was so very sore and upset about smart-ass and just plain malicious entires on threads I started or contributed to. It took me about three years, but I came back. I've recently considered leaving again after some recent bad taste threads. Either this site should be policed by Max (hate the term, but you all know what I mean) to make those who love the music feel safe, or else people will simply leave. I'm still pondering my decision. Anarchy doesn't work because, sadly, there are always spoilers. Are you there, Max?

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 07 May 01 - 03:38 PM

and if you've never been stalked or cared about one who has or care about trust in relationships on the forum, you don't understand the deception in hiding behind the guest moniker.

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: mousethief
Date: 07 May 01 - 03:37 PM

If members leaving don't want people to comment on their leaving, why start a thread about it? This is an invitation to post our comments, whether or not the momentarily nameless police like them or not.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: GUEST,Momentarily Nameless Member
Date: 07 May 01 - 03:25 PM

If you have never found yourself in a situation you felt strongly required that you leave Mudcat for good, you can't accurately understand why people feel they must.

If you have never been in that position, you cannot accurately understand why it makes sense to post a farewell of come sort.

If you have never been lobbied off-thread by so-called "friends" who desperately want you to "come back," you can't accurately understand how hard it is to keep such a decision or what it is like if you do "come back."

If you have never left and then, by whatever means, found a new viewpoint about Mudcat that allows you to come back in good faith and conscience, you can't accurately understand the transforming experience this can be, and perhaps you can't accurately interact with one who has had it.


You can judge such things if you wish. But it has little to do with actual reality, and does not help much.

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: mousethief
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:47 PM

No effort to at least make it easy for us all to live together on the BS/non-BS debate.

Golly, guess we'll have to grow up and handle it ourselves, like big boys and girls.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:35 PM

Apologies for introducing music into this thread AND for posting lyrics that are already in the DT, but why not?

Cease your quarreling and fighting,
Evil thinking and backbiting.
All these things take no delight in,
While we are together.

CHORUS:
Let union be in all our hearts,
Let all our hearts be joined as one.
We'll end the day as we begun,
We'll end it all in pleasure.
Right-folla-rolla-rye, too-ra-lie-do (3x)
While we are together.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 07 May 01 - 09:57 AM

Carol C. - My grandfather played the concertina. My uncle played the accordion. My mother actually gave accordion lessons. My father played the trombone. My sister plays the banjo and her daughter the bodran. I myself am a singer-songwriter.

I'm relieved to know that it's genetic; I always feared it was a hygiene problem. . .

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 May 01 - 07:17 AM

...sexual preference as a kind of arguments) I doubt that you are able to back up that claim by fact.

Wolfgang (sorry for the interruption)

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 May 01 - 07:15 AM

G.A.S.P. wasn't me, but it well could have been.

At the top of the page is The Mudcat Cafe - a magazine dedicated to blues and folk music. That used to be the case, but not so any more, and it's become too time consuming to find anything related to that subject here. Goodbye Mudcat.

was posted by Bruce on the 'More music less BS' thread in 1999. I hope like last time Bruce will reconsider his decision after a couple of weeks, for his knowledge is invaluable. With the 62 songs in the DT that carry his initials he has contributed more than many other who now are glad he's leaving.

Kat, you have claimed that a couple of GUEST,#1 postings have been signed with Bruce's real name. While I have hardly any doubt remaining that the majority of #1's postings come from Bruce (one exception for instance: Please accept thread which started some Mudcatters using guesses about s

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: alison
Date: 07 May 01 - 04:19 AM

sorry to see you go Bruce.... I'll miss your knowledge....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:52 AM

Actually, Mark, it was simply an attempt to draw attention to a phenomenon that does actually happen. Earlier in this thread, Earl and I had a little discussion about it.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:35 AM

Hey, 'Spaw, did you hear about the new house band in Hell? It's called "Nine Bodhrans and an Accordion".

Carol, I hope your "Need I say more?" was in the vein of appreciating highbrow frivolity, not complaining about 'Spaw's lack of, er, shall we say, sensitivity. I think he's one of the treasures of the Mudcat, even though at times he can be a real putz. But that's true of most of us. Well, the men, anyway. (Check a Yiddish dictionary.)

I'll check the nameplate on my box when I get home and let you know. I said it was 48-bass on another thread, but there may not be that many. There are 4 rows of bass buttons: single note, major, minor, and 7th (see? I figured that much out already!)

And sorry, 'Spaw, I don't play anything on it just yet. I'm trying to work out "Under Paris Skies," which will give you a hint on where I'd like to go with it. Yes, I know where some of you would like me to go with it.....as my young patients would say, tough noogies.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Jeri
Date: 06 May 01 - 11:34 PM

For some reason, people who disagree with others sometimes get labeled as worthless, or just plain evil. I don't think it's always been like that here, but it sure seems like the norm these days. Frankly, I'm sickened by the ease with which people can justify being cruel. No one tries to understand people anymore. No one even thinks about the results of their words here - they just say or do whatever they feel like.

A general impression of the Forum: it's compassion that's lacking. Oh, people who agree have it for each other - it's just the the folks who disagree who are fair game. They get called names, told to go find something better, told to just "drop it," and then people look for all sorts of other reasons to treat them like crap. People get on other people's nerves. Instead of trying to understand how the other person feels, they're quickly labeled as "enemy" so it's justifiable to behave badly.

The flaming and general irritability seem to be cyclical, but each time it happens, the compassion level seems to drop. It's the compassion that once made this place special. It's petty squabbles, personality conflicts and a "get the flamers" attitude that characterise Mudcat these days.

I hope I'm just going through a cynical phase...

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 May 01 - 10:51 PM

"...and it ***IS*** a damn shame that there is not a moderated forum similar to this just for moderate to serious music/song discussion..."

Funny Bill, I was thinking the same, not because I could add to that type of discussion but because I do see problems here. This is just my perception but I seem to be seeing:

No effort to at least make it easy for us all to live together on the BS/non-BS debate. As we are all here (I hope) becuase of some interest in music, I'd have thought that more effort could go into the "how can we help each other approach". I guess Peter T saying "They seem to be unable to digest the fact that even in serious music threads folk musicians and listeners are eclectic, chatty, and prone to take the mickey out of each other. We could try a grand experiment: get Max to set up a site where only serious folk music could be talked about, and all frivolity edited out. It would be really exciting -- for the 10 people who showed up" in answer to a suggestion made to help say's a lot... Sort of like "sod them, they're weirdo's"...

My worries run beyond the BS argument as I am pro other conversation but I don't feel easy when I see calls for censorship when people want things open - I mean, there are times, it seems to me the underlying rule is "you can say what you like as long as I approve of it..."

I've said my piece about Bruce O here...

I guess things will settle down again but I think that there is something seriously wrong here that maybe should be faced rather that buried to rise again.

As for other forums, anyone with sufficient web space with cgi/perl scripting could do it but a lot of the strengths of Mudcat would be lost and I don't know the cost of the package.

I spent the time Mudcat was down, looking at ASP with a view to setting up a non BS forum and it seems feasible at first glance - at least the package looks capable, and web hosts providing this seem to be plenty...

Now for the down side...

Let's look at what Max gives...

A LOT of time and effort and I believe LOVE.

He hosts the thing on his own servers and his own lines. Apart from the cost of doing this being FAR greater than using a 3rd party host, there are other less obvious implications - take copyright - a 3rd party host is likely just to cut you off with a challenge from HFA..., bandwith usage could become a problem, etc.

The legacy of information and threads here.

The wealth of knowledge of what people have to shere here.

I guess there would be lots of other things to consider and it is probably a bit of a kick in the teeth for Max that talk of alternatives have cropped up but with what seems to me to be an "if you don't like it f*** off" attitude from some here, perhaps the time will come when it does happen and there is somewhere else to go to even though there would be no reall winners.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 01 - 10:10 PM

Same as you Carol......He plays "Lady of Spain" and one other song that isn't.

"Gawd I love the smell of napalmed accordions in the morning."

--Spaw

...and there you have it, folks. Need I say more?

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 May 01 - 10:01 PM

Same as you Carol......He plays "Lady of Spain" and one other song that isn't.

"Gawd I love the smell of napalmed accordions in the morning."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 01 - 09:53 PM

No, Mark! Please come back with your little red Italian accordion! Here's your post...

Subject: RE: BS - Science Question for Amos or Wolfgang
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 12-Mar-01 - 10:30 PM

Banjer, don't let these Mr. Science guys fool you with all their doubletalk. Water won't burn because it's wet. Dry it out, it'll burn like a house afire. Of course, there ain't no ash will burn....but that's another song.

Mark, what kind of accordion to you have? What make and how many basses, etc? What do you play on it?

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 06 May 01 - 09:35 PM

Carol, you didn't include my line, and it was a lot funnier than Bruce's. Now I'm going to take my little red Italian accordian and go home.

Alohavederci,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 01 - 09:29 PM

because only a very few people (like me)have followed ALL this discussion for 3-4 years, and have also met Bruce and some of the people involved face-to-face (and discussed it at length), it is very difficult to cover all the ins & outs about it all......suffice it to say that Bruce will keep busy, as he says....and IF someone has real questions about his field of expertise, it won't be hard to find him....

you know, Bruce made a real effort to cope with Mudcat...for a LONG time...and as Carol showed, he has shown a real sense of humor at times...(there was one thread when Dan Mulligan was being a pain...*grin*)....

I guess if the wading through the BS got to be more than he was able to cope with, then he did the right thing by opting out...and as for saying goodbye---well, if I were gonna leave after 3000+ posts, I'd say why, too!!

Folks...there is no way to say strongly enough...we are all wired differently!!.....what seems SO simple to you, may be unfathomable to me. It IS a wonder that this place works as well as it does...and it ***IS*** a damn shame that there is not a moderated forum similar to this just for moderate to serious music/song discussion....you'd have Bruce O there.....

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: harpgirl
Date: 06 May 01 - 08:47 PM

I can't believe Mt Olympus has been aflame all week without me!

For the record, Bruce, I don't think you should give up. Be yourself! Even if it means you were Guest #1. As I look this thread over, and some of the others referred to, I see that the Olympians are mostly being themselves, with the usual predictable responses. It is comforting, the sameness.

BTW, your girlfriend could have gotten a diggerido from The House of Musical Traditions, which I enjoyed immensely along with the rest of my trip to DC last week. Please don't go, or come back soon!

hg

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 01 - 07:57 PM

Joe Offer,

Thanks for what you said in your last post (06-May-01 - 06:35 PM).

I would like to add one thing to what you said. This place has some of the most literate, intelligent, creative and, (dare I say it?) high-brow frivolity I've come accross in a long, long time.

One of my favorite bits is this little exchange...

Subject: RE: BS - Science Question for Amos or Wolfgang
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 12-Mar-01 - 11:56 PM

I'm not sure of that Mark. I took some dehydrated water on a camping trip once, and after I'd reconstituted it with H2O, it was just as wet as the regular stuff.

Subject: RE: BS - Science Question for Amos or Wolfgang
From: CarolC
Date: 13-Mar-01 - 12:40 AM

Is it April 1st already?

Subject: RE: BS - Science Question for Amos or Wolfgang
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 13-Mar-01 - 01:08 AM

Of course not. I didn't get started on this month until the third. I started thinking something might be a little off the previous day when my watch calendar gave me Feb. 30. How am I going to get Mar. 1 and 2 back? I need them.

(This place also has some stuff that's just plain silly, but what the hell, eh?)

Not too shabby, in my opinion.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 06 May 01 - 06:36 PM

Whoops..sorry. Was just reading the thread and hit the wrong key. Hadn't meant to post at all. I've nothing really to add as I don't know the background to the problems nor do I know the personalities involved or any things that might have been said but it's always sad to see a knowledgeable person who's contributed a lot leave. I've enjoyed some of your scientific threads Bruce (but only as a mere and humble biologist myself!).

Best wishes for whatever you do in the future Bruce.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 May 01 - 06:35 PM

When I came here in the early days of the 'Cat, I'd get hammered by people like Elsie for daring to mention pop-folkies like Peter, Paul and Mary and the Kingston Trio. I have Bruce (and others) to thank for their helpfulness, and for tolerance of my lack of knowledge of the really traditional stuff. Bruce has exposed me to some delightful music.

As time went on, I found myself complaining about the "BS" threads and the lack of serious music discussion. I think things are at a pretty good balance now - the "BS" threads are usually marked, and people seem to honor the music threads by not putting much in them that's frivolous. It's nice that I can now change thread names - when appropriate, I will add or delete the "BS" label, or add a few words to clarify the subject of a thread.

Although I spend as little time as possible in the "BS" threads, I've come to have a grudging respect for them - they keep people here, and that means they're available to participate in the music discussions that come up. If the forum were strictly music, I don't think our music threads would be as lively and interesting as they are.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 06 May 01 - 06:26 PM

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Hawker
Date: 06 May 01 - 06:03 PM

Don't want to enter into politics here, sorry you felt this was necessary, I use the site for both info and fun, I always try not to be offensive and not to take offence, after all, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Hope newcomers realise that Mudcat is about MORE than dented egos, I love all of them, rude, offensive or just plain stupid, variety is the spice of life, ENJOY!
Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 May 01 - 01:53 PM

You're welcome to your welf-imposed rules, IvanB, but they don't apply here. For the record, I don't regard any of the correspondence I receive as confidential, unless it is specifically marked that way. And I'm under no obligation to respect the marking anyway if the message is gratuitous or offensive.

Big Mick, is someone trying to control us? That should be quite an entertaining spectacle. A bit like watching someone trying to herd cats. *G*

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: fat B****rd
Date: 05 May 01 - 01:18 PM

I came to this site looking for Leadbelly information and stayed on never missing a night checking out lyrics, news , humour and general humour and interest. I have received very little in the way of direct replies (apart from the lovely Carol C. who liked my name) but what the hell ! I'm a grown-up now and it does me to simply have a site where people from thousands of miles away communicate with each other on a vast number of subjects. If something doesn't interest me I don't bother with it. As a "British" person I do sometimes find the American attitude a bit heavy going but by no means intolerable. If the Bruce O situation arose in England most people would probably say "Ok mate Tarrah F... Off" it@s a shame if the guy feels that the site is not what he would like but I for one hope the Mudcat carries on for as long as I can read and enjoy it. So there !! Love, happiness and all the best to Bruce O. and 'Catters whoever you are Fat B****rd XXXXXXXXXX

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 May 01 - 01:05 PM

Point well taken, M. Ted. As I read your post, I realize my language was too strong. Perhaps intolerable is too strong. But it does not take away from the fact that Bruce chose to leave. And he chose to do it in a way that does nothing to fix that which he doesn't care for. In fact, it exacerbates the problem. I have said enough, on to the next thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 May 01 - 12:47 PM

For a long time before the appearance of GUEST#1 there had been vicious and unprovoked attacks on BruceO for simply doing what he did best--I remember at least one instance when the postings in the thread became so odious that the thread was removed from the forum--curious to me is that the person who made those attacks never any criticism, outside of the few of us in the thread who defended BruceO's scholarship--

At any rate, for a long time, even in spite of the assaults, Bruce's comments were restricted to occasional remarks about the fact that it was his belief that the forum should only be concerned with traditional music--certainly he was entitled to have and express his opinion, without being labelled "INTOLERABLE"--If the static got to be too much, and he finally fell to the level of his many detractors, he would not be the first here to have done so...

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 May 01 - 12:19 PM

I'm sure going to miss Bruce around here.

I've been singing and playing traditional and folk material nearly as long as anyone here (40+ years) and one thing that has impressed me over the years is that those who share my interest tend to be an eclectic bunch with a huge variety of interests and a great store of knowledge on many subjects. At 3D world hootenanies and guitar pulls, convrsation has often drifted away from music for a time even though we are all sitting with instruments at the ready. Folk musicians are just that way, they are thinking about a huge variety of things all at the same time and don't see a need to make special rules about what can be discussed in any particular setting. That's always been okay with me because I enjoy the digressions as well. I guess I'm a gregarious sort of person.

I probably don't even open the majority of the threads here. Not because I don't think exchanging nonsense would be fun but, like Sandy, I just don't have the time to spend. There seem to be some music threads on a continuing basis and although I would like to see a few more there are enough to keep me occupied most days. The thing that I hate to see is the bickering and expression of hatred that pops up from time to time. In my experience, that sort of anamosity is rare among the folk crowd. I assume it comes from hangers-on who are only looking to stir up trouble.

I guess until the human species is perfected, I'll continue to hang out here in the hope that others of a like mind will stay too.

Thanks to everyone who, like Bruce, helps to make this an interesting place.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: nutty
Date: 05 May 01 - 12:05 PM

The Bottom Line is this:-
The site belongs to Max

Bruce has his own site - we all know that - just as we should be aware that we are all GUESTS on Max's site.
He invited us all to share in his party

He has put up the money and taken the time and effort to arrange it all

NOW IT FEELS AS IF A GROUP OF "GUESTS(MUDCATTERS)" IS HAVING A SET TOO IN THE FRONT ROOM - AT PRESENT IT'S JUST VERBAL BUT IT LOOKS AS IF IT MIGHT TURN NASTY IF ENOUGH PEOPLE HAVE SCORES TO SETTLE.

A number of non-folkie guests have already put their coats on and left. Others are huddled in the kitchen listening anxiously to the raised voices.

MAX IS WONDERING WHY HE BOTHERED TO ARRANGE ANYTHING IN THE FIRST PLACE

If this were real - Everybody would eventually leave blaming everything on the beer,
The following day Max would receive a load of cards and e-mails - thanking him for a great party and apologising for the bad behaviour - everbody involved would feel very guilty (having been hauled over the coals by their respective spouses) and life would go on.


SO WHY NOT
No one needs to back down or loose face or admit they were wrong
They just need to make their peace with Max

Hazel

Subject: RE: BS: From Bruce O.
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 May 01 - 11:53 AM

I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding here. I have always found Bruce O's contributions in the area of song/music scholarship to be without compare. And that will be missed. But his need to try and control the rest of the Mudcat was getting intolerable. When he attacks people like Jeri and Peter T, who exemplify the best of this place, because they don't contribute in a purely musical way.......that is intolerable. When he comes INTO threads that aren't about music and complains about them being there..........that is intolerable. When he uses guises to harass others who have a different view of what this place is, .........that is intolerable. There are a great many here who scan and participate in music only threads, and God bless 'em. No one goes on a bender because they don't get into the other threads, and they don't complain. They just use the resource as suits them best. But this need to try and change it because it isn't what you want it to be just doesn't get it with me.

I hate to be in disagreement with my very good friends. Art, Barry and Sandy are personal, and very dear friends of mine. And we will remain so. But when I weigh the positive of Bruce O the scholar, against the negativity spawned by the posts under various guises, it is better that he go where things are more like what he wants.

And I have never understood folks that think that they are so important that they need to start a thread to make sure we all know how much we will miss them. Why not just send a personal message to your friends and save us all this? Or is there the motive of causing more dissension?

Mick