What is Happening to our Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 06:25 AM

At the "other one", the 3 or 4 songs each half club, this practice was introduced some time ago due to the dearth of good local clubs singers and musicians who had tended to turn up late if not at all. So, the committee at the time thought it a good idea if someone was always there to start off the night.

When I started going to this club, we had loads of resident performers albeit of varying quality. There was never any need to pre arrange a support spot although visiting singers and musicians always received a welcome.

Things started to change in the eighties for a variety of reasons. There was a rise in more informal and session type opportunities in the Edinburgh area, competition from more rural clubs... many of the older hands actually resided out of town or moved there.

Also for a few years, EFC moved a lot from venue to venue though no fault of its own. This also put many of the regulars off.

Last, but not least, the club began to focus on a more "concert format" and it was felt that the support should reflect this too. After all, many people were coming to see a specific act and weren't as tolerant as the regulars when the likes of Senga McGlumpher and co might wish to do a turn.

Actually, the club still does feature one or two resident singers usually in the second half although our new compere likes to do a song or two himself these days. So, this also takes up time!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:29 AM

At a couple of our local clubs (SE Scotland) there is only one pre-arranged support or floor act per night: at the one, this will be the first half hour of the first half of the night, and at the other, 3 or 4 songs or tunes each half. These people may be professional, semi-pro, or amateur, but will come well prepared and be of highly acceptable standard.

At my own local club, there was a time when the MC tried to fit in anyone who was known to do floor spots, with the result that there was less time to hear the main guest: the Committee decided to restrict it to 3 or 4 "spots" per night, each doing only 1 or 2 items: anyone missed out should not feel aggrieved as they'd probably get a turn next month. The standard is fine, and we have a great mix of singers, accompanied or not, and instrumentalists to call upon.

As for clubs shutting down: I'm not sure I've heard of any in recent times, but I am aware of some rising above serious challenges (finding new venues, sudden unexpected death of key people) and if at least 3 new clubs starting up in the last 10 years. So all in all, our experience does not correlate with Moaner's.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:20 PM

Thank you Guest, nice someone sees my point.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:55 PM

Its strange, when I first ventured into a folk club aged 14 in 1969 the entire audience seemed ancient to me. Here I am 48 years later and now find myself one of the ancients.

During that time to standard of performance has increased tremendously, semi pro's of that era would be hard pushed to get a floor spot in some clubs today.

My tuppence worth!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: mickthemiller
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:32 PM

If thar thinks tha can do better then tha should get thee sen up and do a turn. That's what I was once told anyway.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:21 PM

"i have been playing in folk clubs for 43 years" - not quite as much as me, then.
"i play folk music i do not what you play guest," -   I play traditional music.
" my worst experiences are not in guest booking folk clubs but in some singaround type folk clubs, mainly unrehearsed performances from amatuers" -   Agree 100%, the reason for my post above, and that I believe is the whole point of "MM's"original thread.
There's nothing new in any of this - all fairly pointless. Bye.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 11:38 AM

guest, your experience is different from mine and i have been playing in folk clubs for 43 years,i play folk music i do not what you play guest, my worst experiences are not in guest booking folk clubs but in some singaround type folk clubs, mainly unrehearsed performances from amatuers

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 11:27 AM

"Mudcat Moaner's" post - 3 up - mirror's my experience exactly. I'm playing as much music as ever - just not in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 09:42 AM

My observation and point is that the standards of Folk Clubs have deteriorated and that cannot be good in the long term. We have lost several clubs over the last few years, and many are just about surviving, if that is not the case what is Folk 21 all about?

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 09:13 AM

"they are still sitting in the same seats, singing the same old songs, telling the same tired jokes, the bottom line is Folk Clubs don't want change, so they will eventually cease to exist."
generalising from one particular example, moaner, you are negative inaccurate anable to put forward an intelligent point of view genralising from the particular is idiotic

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 06:08 AM

In answer to your question Sandman and Snail, I am not doing anything about it. I was involved with my local Folk Club many years but eventually realised that nothing will ever change so I gave up, and moved on. I still occasionally visit and after 20 odd years they are still sitting in the same seats, singing the same old songs, telling the same tired jokes, the bottom line is Folk Clubs don't want change, so they will eventually cease to exist.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 05:40 AM

mudcat moaner has not answered the question, what is he/ she/ it/ doing apart from being the hurler 0n the ditch

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 05:18 AM

Snail, give it a rest . Moaner has stated his/ her case . You disagree, fine we get it!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:01 AM

I don't need to be happy with it Mudcar Moaner because it is not within my experience.
I'll ask again. what are YOU actually doing to raise the game apart from moaning on Mudcat?

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 12:25 PM

what positive efforts are you actually making about this?
taken up dancing.

It is a very firm policy at our Stroud Ceilidhs that we dance or we socialise. There is no song/morris spot normally because we want people to commune, to socialise and the man in red makes sure that people get the flyer for next month and new faces certainly get a conversation. It is social dancing and we want it to be just that - a scial event.
Another policy is to allocate a certain number of dances to plucking wallflowers off their seats. We like to dance with our chosen partners but for the series to buzz, we want everyone to have a dance.

I might add with a certain modesty (on our collective behalves) - it is working. That and copious publicity.

I always remember my first night at the local FC (I was new to the area too). It was with a neurotic wife (soon ex) and was attempting to cheer her up, it may have worked. But two of the organisers came up to me and asked if I wanted to sing. Well, apart from not having ever, imagine the embarrassment, on my behalf, that ex-wifey would have suffered. But the point is they cared, and both of them are no longer part of that club, and it shows.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 08:00 AM

well i think its karma really. the river of life moves on.

you have to realise that the people who gave the folk clubs their artistic importance and position in our consciousness were people of charisma and talent.

to change the direction of the strange trajectory they are now following will take the emergence of equally charismatic and revolutionary thinkers.

be careful what you wish for!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 05:49 AM

My point is that if Folk Clubs don't raise their game, they will eventually cease to exist in anything other than small groups woolly jumpered eccentrics, which just what a lot of people think they are anyway. If your happy with that fine, personally I'm not.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 12:17 AM

he's keeping the tradition alive... i suppose that's the theory.

its alright to be in a minority. its alright that English people cannot relate to their own folksong (remember Carthy's dictum - just because you're English, it doesn't mean you understand this stuff).

Its where this set of beliefs has taken us. And the public has voted with its feet. They want folk clubs. but they don't want what the intelligentsia has decided is their folk music.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 07:53 PM

Birmingham is a foreign country, they do things differently there. And this is all down to floorsingers using printed word sheets?
Apart from Moaning on Mudcat, what positive efforts are you actually making about this?

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 01:01 PM

... and people are asking why the clubs are struggling for audiences ?

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 11:29 AM

Yes. It is a fact many people in the Folk Club audiences, being well stricten in years like to sit in the same seats every week, you cut across that at your peril.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 09:05 AM

"the constant battle with where you can and can't sit."...???????

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 06:55 AM

The Snail: Folk Clubs in my area ie Birmingham, have and are struggling for many reasons, Pubs closing or going up market, Open Mics syphoning off younger performers, the word Folk putting people off, the generally unwelcoming attitude of some clubs towards new people, the constant battle with where you can and can't sit. If you don't believe me go and ask them, they quite often will tell you they are struggling to keep their audience numbers up.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 06:03 AM

Better or worse ?

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 05:19 AM

why only two directions?

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 04:54 AM

crib sheet users might imply an increasing number of new people coming into folk clubs

some never leave the "newbie" stage then? But at the end of the day it all hangs on the performance. And that we can't see from this parish, but in person it is obvious who has practiced well. But giving yourself a chance includes learning the words/music.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 04:33 AM

"Change" can go in 2 directions. I'll take your 1st and 2nd option.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 04:06 AM

I seem to have read threads like this for the last decade or so - none of which really come to any conclusion. However, I’ll just add one comment, which is that folk clubs, like everything else in our world, change. Why should they not evolve over the years - or not evolve, as the case may be.

Three of the clubs in my area have either closed or altered their character over the last 2-3 years. My advice: either live with it, stay away or do something about it.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 03:57 AM

I dunno - perhaps he had toothache that night. who knows? It was Toni Savages old club at The Three Barrels Ampersand.

I can remember recording one of Derek Brimstone's albums one night - Northampton or somewhere down the MI.

There was this posh bint onstage with three toadies singing Home James and Don't Spare the Horses. Every verse, remembered perfectly, accompany herself on coconut shells for the clip clopping....we even had a clip clop solo.

After about seven or eight minutes, Derek whispered, "Oh for godsake please shut up!"
I suppose they get to see a lot of that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 03:32 AM

Puzzled about the situation regarding Nic Jones Al; not saying that it didn’t happen, but the numerous times that I went to see Nic or booked him at whichever club I was running I always found him most interested in the club and the floor singers/musicians that it presented.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:23 PM

dunno why it did that - the bloke played a cassette of Jack Hudson. out of respect to Jack - they let him play one track - but when it transpired that he intended playing the whole album - things were said.

in Ilkeston, I remember this bloke , getting out a bit of paper from which he solemnly read the words of Crystal Chandeliers.

i think its like some people just want to be the centre of attention. in years gone by the church would let the read the lesson or ring the bell, calling folks to worship - nothing complicated. they could fit into a team of bellringers.

all these people have heard somewhere that any old shit is if not acceptable in folk clubs, not grounds for ridicule, ejection - or physical attack.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 11:12 PM

i didn't suggest there was anything wrong in what Nic did. several folk clubs didn't want floorsingers at all.

obviously its up to you whether you want to listen to other singers.

i remember the boldmere in sutton coldfield used to occasionally get this trio who trotted out their 'funny' folk songs - in particular the one about the coachman in tight trousers and then they'd bugger up the evening for everyone else. Gerry Lockran was was virtually inaudible, as they talked drunken bollocks very volubly.

they even wore down Nick Fenwick, and he was bloody good with the heckler put downs.

min you some floorspots are very bizarre. one that always sticks in my mind is this bloke who , when it was his turn producer a ghetto blaster thing from a carrier bag, and said listen to this...he played a xassette of jack hudsoc

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 03:08 PM

"then quality needs to be encouraged and the unaccompanied word sheet holder is not the way to do iT"
TRUE,unless prformers have practised with their sheets, and know what they intend to do before they get up, for example a good actor would be able to perform with word sheets, because he is experienced and practised at performing with them. the truth is.. it can be done but rarely is because frequently performers use it as an excuse to be unrehearsed.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 02:23 PM

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 08:19 AM

it isn't unknown for folksingers to have zero interest in their fellow performers.

my first paid gig bout 75/76 was three quid as a support to Nic Jones.
Nic stayed in the bar downstairs till it was his time to perform. it dismayed many local acts who had wanted to get a nod of approval from their hero..

Al, I'm not sure that I can go along with your disapproval of artists who choose to be absent during opening spots. I can think of dozens of top level performers I have seen in the club which I helped run until recently, who prefer not to be in the audience during the opening act.

In many cases, I think it may be that they think their very presence might unnerve an inexperienced performer. In other cases, it might well be that they want to "psych" themselves up right up until the last minute before they take the stage.

I have no way of knowing for sure , but I would guess that the latter would have been the case as far as Nic Jones was concerned.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 01:53 PM

Sorry, TheSnail, you are right, of course. I was replying to the Moaner.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 01:42 PM

You may be right, I've no means of judging. Alternatively, since use of crib sheets implies a certain lack of experience then maybe an increase in crib sheet users might imply an increasing number of new people coming into folk clubs; people whose knowledge, confidence and expertise will improve if we are welcoming and supportive. Maybe folk clubs will, through them, continue when the sixties generation has finally fallen off the perch.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 01:36 PM

"what I see at several Folk Clubs in my area"
Since we don't know that area, it is impossible to comment. I and others have reported that it is not true in our experience.
I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Mudcat Moaner
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 12:56 PM

I would suggest that making music together should be termed a Session, where we do all play together. However, many would argue that a Folk Club is a performance situation where you are expected to sit quietly and listen to the performer. My initial post was trying to make the point that the standard of performer is slowly going down. There are many reasons for this I just happen to think unaccompanied word sheet hold is one reason.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 09:04 AM

Of course, Sandman, any line drawn about any aspect of music making is just a line drawn in sand waiting to be blurred by wind or tide. The essential element of folk music, however, is not that it be good music, only that it is performed by folk. Such music can be created at home or for profit, but the trade description of a folk club is only that the music is performed by folk together with other folk. The activity of making music together is much more important than insisting on an entry level quality based on whether or not anyone would pay to listen to it.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 08:19 AM

it isn't unknown for folksingers to have zero interest in their fellow performers.

my first paid gig bout 75/76 was three quid as a support to Nic Jones.
Nic stayed in the bar downstairs till it was his time to perform. it dismayed many local acts who had wanted to get a nod of approval from their hero.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 07:54 AM

"If folk clubs are reverting to a place for musicians making music for each other then that is a return to the roots of folk music, and far less a violation of their trade description than being a venue for professional and wannabe professional musicians to earn their crusts." Too simplistic,Musicians can and do make music in their own homes without going to folk clubs, the roots of folk music are varied and have always included exchange of music for money or food, take a look at medieval troubadours or itinerant harpists like o carolan. the worrying thing is that standards are so low in some[not all] singaround clubs that no one would pay money to hear the unrehearsed songs tunes etc.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Ged Fox
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 06:43 AM

"That's a suicide note."

Folk clubs are just one manifestation of folk getting together to share music. The phenomenon of the folk club format is a mere blip in the history of folk music and of music in general. When folk clubs go the way of parlour gatherings or glee clubs it will be because they are no longer relevant to folk.

If folk clubs are reverting to a place for musicians making music for each other then that is a return to the roots of folk music, and far less a violation of their trade description than being a venue for professional and wannabe professional musicians to earn their crusts.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:40 AM

Agree with that, "Sandman" - the difference between a folk club and a pub gig, or even "Open-mic" nights [ neither of which are what the original post was about ].

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:22 AM

folk clubs are there[imo] for people to listen to songs ,not for songs to be background wall paper music

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Johnny J
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 05:03 AM

The subtle difference between Folk clubs and the better sessions as opposed to Open Mics and the like is, or should be, that it is usually a more "sharing" experience. The audience and members usually encourage and appreciate(or at least pretend) what other singers or musicians are doing.

In the Open Mic/pub gig scenario, it's all about self promotion and singing or playing "at the audience". Quite often, the performers simply "B-gger off" after they've done their song, poem, or whatever and don't even have the courtesy to listen to the other acts or performers. Thankfully, such behaviour is still rare in folk clubs although some pre booked support performers sometimes do this. Of course, some may have other commitments so I maybe shouldn't generalise.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:45 AM

"If clubs are to survive beyond being just a venue for floor singers, singing to each other,"

That's a perfectly valid folk tradition."

That's a suicide note.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM

I'm a little surprised to discover that the purpose of folk clubs is as a launch pad for the careers of professional performers although we're very glad when it happens. I can think of several we booked as teenagers who have gone on to stardom. Folk clubs offer a different product from pub bookings, open mikes, festivals and CD or download sales and exist in their own right.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:29 AM

well judged!

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 17 - 04:19 AM

i think maybe. folkclubs are a victim of their own success.
when i was a young boy, there wasn't a quaker meeting where we lived. we went to the nearby little town of spalding. we'd go there every week, and i knew the people there. i knew what they were going to be moved to get up and say.

then when i was fifteen i got a scholarship to a quaker school in Reading. Reading meeting was a real eye opener. all kinds of weird people getting up and saying bizarre things.

i think it was good training for being a folk club organiser. i learned to be tolerant. my own convictions about religion had to take a back seat. and in a similar way when i organised folk clubs - i learned that my deeply held convictions about the nature of folk music my own business - people who came to my club and offered to sing were, as much as possible, entitled to respect and their time under the spotlight,

in a way it's the toughest commandment from the sermon on the mount. judge not lest ye be judged.

Subject: RE: What is Happening to our Folk Clubs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Oct 17 - 08:48 PM

Was it Karl Dallas who once said "Folk clubs exist so that one day they no longer need to exist..."?

That day has come. The kinds of music that were, for a time, most easily heard in folk clubs, are not their monopoly any more. You see it most clearly in the careers of younger performers: many folk club members stil think that performing on one of their venues is an important first career step. In practice it's no so much harder now for a new act to get a booking in a folk club that most don't bother at all, or leave it long after they've ceased to be any sort of new act. For a performer under 30, a folk club gig is a pretty irrelevant career move compared with pub bookings, open mikes, festivals and CD or download sales.