Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 02:16 PM

no the real problem is that the important guitarists (Django, Hendrix, Jansch) are largely musically illiterate.

Some like Django and Bert dallied with learning notation, and it seemed to subtract rather than add.

Musical literacy is important for ensemble playing - but the geniuses, the wildcards like Bix Beiderbeck and Lightning Hopkins - seemed better without that stuff in their heads.

its best left to the individual. no blame one way or the other.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,The Ballad of The Bold Researcher
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 01:54 PM

the only people I've ever heard say the "real folk musicians don't sight read" are the ones who can't, personally it struck and strikes me that there is more that a bit of jealousy there....Does this mean that because I can actually sight read that I'm not a "REAL MUSICIAN".......oh dear.... :-D *LOL*

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 01:16 PM

I wish I could have done that when I was young. Lucky buggers.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,The Ballad of The Bold Researcher
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 01:03 PM

the short answer to the question posed is....some people think so

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 12:08 PM

In the states it seems that "traditional" refers more to a process than a repertoire or style.

This approach is exemplied by the West Virginia Folk Art Apprenticeship Program.

http://www.augustaheritage.com/about.html#The_Apprenticeship_Program

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:45 AM

I have emailed someone who is currently on the course to come and add some informed opinion to this thread....hopefully if they are not too busy out playing (folk?) music they might join the discussion.

Paul

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: johnadams
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:37 AM

Of course they listen to folk music. It's cost me and Chris a soddin' fortune in CDRs giving the students access to bits of our now deleted vinyl collection.

And quite a few record collections have gone their way - the late Sid Long's stuff went up there for one.

Some of the students have a real curiosity about sources and source singers. Some of them try specialise in and research their own regional music.

Others end up being derivative and lacking in sparkle. It takes all sorts. It's a degree. Some will get 1st class honours and some might scrape a third or even fail.

J

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:28 AM

WLD - Bigg Market, Newcastle (the old Bigg Market) and Pink Lane

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:26 AM

One of the great pleasures of Mudcat are the posts made by people like Malcolm, Q, Jim Dixon, Masato, Joe Offer (and some others whose names have slipped me at this moment). Their research into song origins and the ways songs have changed over the years has been an education for me. Surely a university degree will mean little if the recipient has just a piece of paper with Latin words on it. But most will come out having earned a good degree with diligence and study, and that will be a good thing for the future of the music. People are wont to quote that old saw about 'those who do not learn from history . . .'. Well, the people at Newcastle will be. They are the ones who will ensure that it is not forgotten. Their resaerch will enlighten generations to come. So once again, surely . . . .

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:20 AM

weelittledrummer was being a little selective in his quoatation when he said "the entrant is crudely asked - do you enjoy playing English/Irish traditional music?

The full context is -

Do you enjoy listening to different types of music?
The most important factor in choosing whether to study music is - are you interested in the subject? Do you enjoy:


performing traditional music from Britain and/or Ireland?
listening to different types of music?
finding out more about musical influences and origins?
going to concerts and other music performances?
understanding how culture and identity relate to music?

If you can answer 'yes' to these, then this could be the degree for you!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:20 AM

No, no. Not Gateshead. North Shields.
Does anyone know what Sedayne's talking about?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:16 AM

A geordie bloke I was at college with reckoned Gateshead women had the price written on the soles of their shoes whereas Newcastle lasses were more discreet - just folk legend?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:14 AM

Sorry, I think the diarrhoea must be infecting my writing, in which I'll accept Diane's Chuntering as another euphemism (see other thread).

Anyone on this thread actually been on, or doing, the course by the way?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:05 AM

I am glad they manage to find a little time away from the arpeggio practises, to listen to a bit of folk music.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:04 AM

They do. And all the stuff Sedayne is chuntering on about, but not to the exclusion of performance. The course is performance-based. Look at the course structure before telling the students they should be doing something else. If they wanted to be archivists or field recordists or ethomusicologists exclusively they would be studying elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:59 AM

Dick wrote:

"the best experience for traditional musicians,is to listen to source musicians /singers"

which the Newcastle students do.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Bridger
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:58 AM

Sedayne what are you talking about?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:51 AM

As the study of folk music has always been an academic pursuit, one would think the degree course would follow on in that tradition - something more along the lines of Ethnomusicology, which is to say as an academic discipline, rather than a vocational one, given that actual folk music has never been that easy to quantify or qualify given its social / human context. I remember an old friend who was doing the post-grad Ethomusicology course at Durham telling me of the fun she was having trying to transcribe a field-recording she'd made of an amateur Barber Shop Quartet from Hartlepool.

More of this, one would have thought, would be useful, by way of collecting, cataloging, analysing and generally documenting a music which endures very often in the cultural hinterlands - certainly beyond the remit of the likes of Folkworks, whom, I believe, we have to thank for the degree course, determindly churning out its 'Stars of the Future.'

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:48 AM

Course its good

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,baz parkes
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:39 AM

I don't know if it's any good....but I'd probably rather have done it than a joint degree in English and History....

baz

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:23 AM

No one in the North East confuses Gateshead with Newcastle; they are distinct and entirely separate entities, divided by The Tyne, and no matter how many bridges they've built over the years, they are no closer today than than they were a hundred years ago when, having arrived on the Newcastle quayside from far across the sea, some wag looked south across the Tyne and said: "How far away England looks from here."

But who the hell came up NewcastleGateshead?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:20 AM

When I was talking to one of the girls out of Crosscurrents, one of the bands to emerge from the course, about three years ago when they were playing in South Shields she told me that "a musical qualification" was essential for entry to the course. Has this changed? It was mainly some of the mature students that I was in contact with offering some help with the history of the North East folk scene for their theory work.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:16 AM

I think this course is important,as are comhaltas examinations.
they are a useful focus,but they dont necessarily mean ,that when one has completed the course,that one has arrived as a traditional musician,they are just a starting point.
the best experience for traditional musicians,is to listen to source musicians /singers[in whatever genre,be it MissippiJohnHurt,RoscoeHolcomb,HarryCox,orElizabethCronin]then to go out and learn on the job,.
Stage craft can be learned from watching others[not necesarrily traditional musicians],
These courses are good,but they are just a beginning for the participants.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:02 AM

Diane: I know you didn't say Grade VIII was a "hard and fast prequisite" of getting on the course. But you did say prospective students would be unlikely to be admitted if they didn't reach that standard.I am merely pointing out that the people who made the name we call it by would not necessarily have reached that standard, or anything like it.That standard exists to measure a completely different kind of ability, which is fun to possess, but not wildly relevant. If anybody disagrees with me, check out what you have to do to pass Grade VIII and figure out how that applies to Harry Cox or Woody Guthrie.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: fiddler
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:58 AM

The old reading music hare is runing again - I've just left a dance group where the dance leader castigated the musicians for using dots..

As a child I had my knuckles rapped with the narrow edge of a 12 inch ruler if Miss 'name omitted to protect the guilty' thought I was not reading each and every note and it's pencilled annotations from the paper in front of me - subsequently even when I know a tune I feel totally lost without the obigatory stand and piece of lined paper on it.Hence I rarely go to sessions.

Incidentally the group has actually lost the full band! 6 musicians in one hit, and some dancers.

None all of of us are young enough to have folk degrees but some of us have lived folk music for more years than we care to admit and can perform and appreciate music without a degree. That is important.

I agree too, I always thought the Thatcherite principles were wrong and we do not necceassarily have to provide vocationally based degrees for all. But there again to suggest as the current rulers do that 50% of the community need degrees is totally irrelevant. I have watched the dumbing down of british degrees and the desecration of british HE by a number of administrations ir is sad. Teh Folk degree is one of the bright spots for me even if I don't agree with everything I know about it, it should eb seen as a benefit and a good advert for folk music in general.

I think it is time the English woke up to their heritage in music and dance and all oral traditions. As above the Scots and the Irish have great pride in theirs both of which overlap with ours in some areas and to study such as part of a degree course is a good idea and we get what we get at the end of it.

Sadly Gateshead has been getting clled Newcastle for some time now....More folk Geography courses needed....

nad typping for the folky is very portant 2

Andy

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:55 AM

how about do you like playing traditional or contemporary folk music.

I used to have a keyboard with an arpegettiator - you played the note and a complicated arpeggio slithered out like a snake - infact you could choose major arppeggios, major 7th and minor and minor 7th.

its one of those techniques only us real musicians wot play contemporary music know about.

I doubt if they'd let you lot buy one.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:42 AM

and Derek Dougan....

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:41 AM

if, as you say, it is some kind of prerequisite to getting on the course

There are not, as far as I am aware, any hard-and-fast 'prerequisites' for course entry (other than an ability to pay the fees). Prospective students are assesed individually on their merits. Clearly they wil be asked "Do you like playing traditional music?". If they do not, what exactly would be the point of applying for the course?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:35 AM

then there was Andy Gray....

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:33 AM

I blame Andy Warhol

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:31 AM

It wasn't the usual muso vibe though; in that respect I'd have to say the people we saw certainly had their shit together. This was something more akin to maybe Pop Idol - or rather Classical Idol (which has me yearning for the more decorously gauche Young Musician of the Year...)

Celebrity depresses me on any level, aspirant or otherwise; I like my folk like my football: a grey game played on grey days watched by grey people.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:29 AM

Diane: I can sight read perfectly well. And play scales and arpeggios, though not as well as when I was student. But I do not regard any of those accomplishments as having any relevance whatsoever to being a folk musician. Leadbelly seemd to manage OK without them, as far as I am aware.It would be fine for the degree course to teach such stuff to those who were interested but never got round to learning: but if, as you say, it is some kind of prerequisite to getting on the course, I would think it a disgraceful betrayal of what folk music is.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:48 AM

I've looked at the website, but frankly it sends out mixed messages to me.

Some of the contributors and moving spirits seem eclectic enough, but the entrant is crudely asked - do you enjoy playing English/Irish traditional music?

If I hadn't spent my youth in teacher training college with not very clever people working out the meaning of education and precisely why the realities of life in a secondary school were irrelevant to such lofty thoughts, no doubt the icy fingers of foreboding wouldn't be poking me so hard at the moment. Academics are awful people. They can't be trusted with big ideas like education and folk music.

Having said that, I'm glad the Newcastle course is there. Its at very least a step in the right direction.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:41 AM

OK. well I should have said "equivalent in performance ability to . . . "
But if a musician is unable to play arpeggios accurately they are going to have a lot of trouble with, for instance, Iron Legs which I know for a fact Greg can play very well.

Oh, and the old prejudice about "proper trad musicians don't sightread" You astonish me, Greg. Sightreading is only a skill which anyone can acquire and jolly useful and timesaving it is too.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:32 AM

Diane Easby says "In short, the Newcastle degree is performance-based and although there are no formal entry requirements, it is unlikely that a student would be admitted were their abilities noticeably below Grade VIII".
    I am entirely in favour of university courses to study folk music. But if any such course imposed that sort of entry condition,whether formally or informally, I think it should be closed forthwith until they figured out what they are supposed to be studying. Grade VIII indeed! Some great folk musicians have vast technical ability. Some have virtually none. Or not the sort of abilties measured by that grading system, anyway. The ability to play arpeggios and scales fast and accurately, and to sight read, has about as much relevance to the study of folk music as the height, sex, race or sexual orientation of the candidates.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Santa
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:49 AM

Er, isn't Fay Heald (Witchs of Elswick) one of the graduates of the folk degree course? Can't say I've noticed any lack of connection or rapport with the audience there.

As for immaturity/preening/ambition/posturing: sounds like any young muso to me, folk degree or not. It comes from spending too much time by yourself concentrating on your instrument. Not just musicians either, come to think of it.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:28 AM

I went along to one of the 'Stars of the Future Nights' last year at The Bridge Hotel Folk Club in which students from the degree course (AKA The Kids from Fame) each do a fifteen minute set which, I believe, goes toward they're final grade. The word was this was the only way they could coerce them into attending local folk clubs.

I was impressed by the overall standard, but dismayed by the general attitude; understandable perhaps in terms of their immaturity / ego / ambition. But whilst ordinarily such premature preening & posturing would have been justifiably scoffed at, the fawning deference shown to them by the local singers was quite sickening to behold, many of whom were only to grateful for this gratis glimpse of future folk celebrity.

Another Monolith in the Corporate Cultural Landscape of what they're now calling NewcastleGateshead.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:22 AM

My apologies, that should have read "anonymous smart arse".

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: mattkeen
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:19 AM

That was Diana quote from 2006 when the link did not work - smart arse

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:09 AM

Deleted anonymous abusive guest post

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:05 AM

One suspects that a liberal interpretation of the purpose of education would find little favour with the Thatcherite element whose voice is still so strong in the English education system. The business/vocational element of the course is obviously a nod in the direction of the late Keith Joseph.

As I say - my area of concern would be that a student would perhaps be in the situation of signing up for Literature course and finding that the teaching staff were all symbolist poets, or beat poets or whatever was 'in' that week.

Folkmusic is bigger than most folksingers allow.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:57 AM

I happen to agree with DE concerning the course. I think its great that this sort of course exists. We, the general public can only benefit by seeing these students as they develope in their musical career. There are such a lot of young excellent musicians out their and its fantastic.
Is it any good? Of course it is.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: synbyn
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:54 AM

How nice to be able to agree with an opinionated woman... the last para at least... I'd agree (from without) with doc.tom that the presentational skills are sometimes a bit formulaic, but I suspect that that part is hard to teach. After all, most really proficient musicians have locked themselves up in their bedrooms practising all through their teens (haven't they?)... It need not be for money that they study- it will almost certainly be a lifetime's sustainance..

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:42 AM

And from the other most opinionated woman on Mudcat:
Why doesn't anyone read the previous threads (here's the last one) which mushroom annually with monotonous regularity? Or better still, examine the course content?

I really can't be arsed to repeat everything I've written before for the benefit of the wilfully ignorant because they really ought to engage in a smidgeon of basic research themselves. There again, as Ruth says (more or less), these ill-informed whingers probably failed O level in coherent thought. This is just one contribution I made previously:

People might take a moment to read about what the four-year BMus course actually entails. such as course content and entry requirements, before deluging this space with the usual prejudices such as 'we never needed this sort of thing in my day' and 'reading music stops you being a proper trad musician', blah blah . . .

Also they might bear in mind that England is very much behind other countries (not least Scotland and Ireland) as well as Finland and Sweden, in giving equal recognition to traditional as to establishment arts.

The website is a bit crap and I can't link to the actual course page. You have to click through from 'Learning & Participation'.

http://www.thesagegateshead.co.uk/

In short, the Newcastle degree is performance-based and although there are no formal entry requirements, it is unlikely that a student would be admitted were their abilities noticeably below Grade VIII. Additionally, the course provides modules in business elements which equip students with skills relevant to a wide area of expertise. It does not exist to churn out fodder for "f*lk clubs", nor should it. That would be as idiotic as the wholly stupid putdown jeer of those same whingers who decry a catering course for its oriental cuisine element as "degrees in curry-making".

Today, 50% of the population is expected to graduate in something (anything) purely to complete their formal education. If this can be achieved in a subject dear to the student's heart, which they will enjoy and be able to continue throughout their lives whether or not they are actually making their living in a related field, so much the better

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:57 AM

"One of my 'performance indicators' is retention rate."

Amen, brother. When I was teaching at university level a few years ago, the paradox was that the 50% targets mean that many "new" universities will take just about anyone at clearing, including people who haven't even done A Levels - and when these young people cannot then cope with the academic environment (because they don't even know how to write an essay, for example, and don't have particularly advanced literacy skills), the priority is to do whatever you can to retain them when some of them probably shouldn't even be there in the first place. I personally found it soul-destroying. Oh, and just try failing anyone...

*climbs down from hobby horse*

Re the Newcastle degree: I have heard mixed responses from several former students and graduates. To be honest, the only way to respond to the question would be to be able to include their views and opinions. It would also be interesting to know why most people who do the degree are doing it. Do they see it as a stepping-stone into a career, as many other students do these days, or is it about study for its own sake?

When most people discuss the folk degree they immediately think of all the bright young things who perform at festivals, but I understand that there is a range of ages and experience on the degree - I'd love to hear what some of the mature students make of it. When I was teaching, it was the mature students who were the most interestng and rewarding to teach.


Yours sincerely,

One of the Most Opinionated Women on Mudcat

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: fiddler
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:27 AM

Anyway you couldn't duplicate Eliza now couold you?

:-)

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: fiddler
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:26 AM

hmmmmm..........

Surely it is What are we expecting from the degree?

It is study of and examination in a branch of music which happens to be folk.

Do English degree holders all go on to become writers etc. I know a chemist who is an accountant........

What do Sandra Kerr and the others academics tutoring and lecturing on the course see as it's aims and aspirations.?

Lets not all talk b*ll*x about what we think lets try and have an informed discussion. A degree in anything merely opens doors it does not guarantee entry and acceptance - in any field!

BTW I work in a University and have known many students over the years some of whom used their degrees in a vocational manner, others (one in particular) after working many years in poor jobs not demanding high academic standards re trained and became a physiotherapist - so much for a joint English and German degree!

What I am saying really is lets keep it all in perspective the aim is not to turn out a new Waterson, Carthy, Coe, Rusby or Kirkpatrick is it?

How many mainstream performers hold music degrees in their chosen art form?

Andy

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:24 PM

surprising to me theres no equivalent degree
at any colleges in the Bristol area..?????

especially seeing as music technology / performance arts courses
are hugely popular with local further education students
down here in the west country..


.. and it makes far more sense to me
for young folk musicians to learn their craft & culture
in a city where you can still get a proper pint of cider !!!!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Greg B
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 10:29 PM

How many Newcastles do you have to drink in order to obtain
the degree.

I might qualify on the basis of life experience...

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 10:07 PM

I had to ask . . . .