Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 09:58 PM

Well, Number 5 has a nasty dogleg to the left but if you can pull the ball a bit you can actually turn the corner off the tee with a Driver. From there its a 2-Iron to the Green. The other significant holes are the 12th, an all-carry Par 3 that rewards a great high Irons player and the 17th with that water hazard guarding the Green and the deep Fairway traps at 200 yards out. The 18th is a pretty hole and is a nice finishing Par 4.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 09:32 PM

Has anyone seen the course?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:26 PM

This past thread ought to be useful. Ian Stephenson attended there.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:26 PM

Hmm... Interesting - as usual. Is it any good?? - for whom? and in what way? Converations with several who have been throught it seems to suggest that it has been of benefit/value to them. It is a degree IN MUSIC, remember. Government targets of 50% of the population going to university means, BY DEFINITION, anyone of average intelligence and above! Early concerns about the academic rigor of the course are totally assuaged by having His Worship The Gammon in charge - and the credentials of the tutors can hardly be in doubt. I find it encouraging that the course at least attempts to deal not only with the music, but also with the 'Industry' (God help us all!), stage-craft (although not very sucessfully from most of what I've seen) and how to get gigs and influence people (throw money at it). Rather it was there than not - how about some more to extend the scale and scope, and hopefully to avoid a singular school/style develpoing - no, it's not too late!
TomB

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:26 PM

The disturbing thing is the VERY good musicians who come out of these University / Poly / whatever courses with a very high proficiency on their chosen instruments , form a band , and immediately EXPECT HUGE fees without having ANY idea of 'relating ' to an audience !

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:10 PM

Al, the question is two-fold. What does he want to know, and what does he want to perform. University degrees should always be about self-improvement, and not about pecuniary benefit: that was an invention of the Gordon Gecko years under that unspeakable woman. Learning is the key virtue.

I agree that that's what folk can do. But anime is a different art form from the hollywood blockbuster, and that differs from the art movie. A film director needs to understand the silent movie to know how to tell a story visually - my favourite shot from the Mad Max movies from Mad Max 1 - the shot where you see the belt drive to the the GMC supercharger gradually, stutteringly take up drive - knows this. THe hugely overrated "Get Carter" knows this.

Likewise in photography (a medium I hate) - the photographer needs to understand black and white in order to be able to make meaning with a colour shot.

You can't make folk music without roots. And no artist should be in any art form purely for profit. It is his/her muse that that must rule.

If your man is a money grubber, tell him to go to a music management or music technology course at dunnamany places. If his muse is in English/UK roots, there is not much alternative to Newcastle. Or he can go out on the road....


Dammit, we simply HAVE to meet some time, and look for the overlap!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 08:04 PM

Aah cannit vouch for how 'good' the Folk Degree is but it worries me that it's up there alongside the degree in 'Coronation Street'

Years ago somebody told uz that ANY academic acheivement (11 Plus, GCE, A-Level, Uni Degree) just proved that you hev the ability te tek in info and store it lang enough te be examined on it.

However, aah've heard soem of the 'graduates' from these degree courses play at festivals in various guises and they aall seem very proficient on their chosen multi-instruments but none of them appear to have any connection or rapport with an audience.

Summat the' cannit teach ye in school!

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:29 PM

Obviously I don't know the facts of the matter, Richard. it just seemed an area of concern to me - and I would want the the matter cleared up before I considered recommending the course for one of my friend's kids.

If you really think the soul of the English society can only be addressed in folk music, by using a load of stylistic eccentricities - mainly thought up by very imaginative and individual artists in the 1950's and 60's - well that's your opinion - and you know mine is different.

Folk has got a lot to offer. it can tell a story faster than an epic film, characterise as vividly as a face on a cigarette card, provide performance and confidence building experience for young people....and no doubt much more I haven't thought of.

its too bloody good to leave it to the folksingers.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:25 PM

The prospect of redbrick turreted enclave where the most opinionated men on mudcat have the power of pass and failure over young people would disenchant many.[quote from wee little drummer]
WLD,What about the mudcat women?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: johnadams
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:23 PM

I agree with Richard that if you're going to do a folk degree which includes generating new material then that material has to stand on something and the style of the early 19th century is just as valid as any other past period. The one thing it doesn't need to be is bang up to date.

But the question that any folk degree or course or module has to address is does it provide a suitable basis for stepping into a career? Can folk music performance be studied in this way as opposed to just getting out there and doing it?

We faced the same questions two decades ago when Salford University was validating degrees in Popular Music and teaching people to be Rock'N'Rollers etc.. A piece of paper is no good when really, you're only as good as your last gig!

Really, the folk degree is probably the equivalent of a fine art degree - you're not guaranteed to turn out the equivalent of a Henry Moore or a Botticelli but it's a good breeding ground for all manner of interesting things.

J

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 07:16 PM

Of course what I say and what I do may not necessarily co-incide.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: johnadams
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:56 PM

George Papavgeris wrote:

I don't know the current norm, but in the early 70s a first year dropout of 40% in any kind of university course did not raise eyebrows.

George, those days are well past. One of my 'performance indicators' is retention rate.

J

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM

I could not agree less with WMD. If people wish to write about a contemporary issue in the idioms of metal (any of its many genres - I once got into a real flame war about the limits of "doom"), ragga, country, power-pop or whatever by all means they may do so, and the song may be none the worse, but if it is anything to do with "folk" then it requires the connection with the folk - who we are which is but an extension of what we were. Thus the word has consistent meaning across "folk-lore" "folk tale" folk-myth" "folk-dance" and "folk arts" generally.

The insistence that no form that has been used is of contemporary application is, in the limit, absurd, but moreover, the genres that WMD would prefer to use are in fact rooted in a tradition - a more recent tradition, and an alien tradition to England or many parts of the UK - namely the forms of "country" which in many parts are indebted to to blues forms or what might now be called "Mobo". In short they owe more to American (mostly US) cultural impperialism than to the UK. There is no reason to advocate that the people of England, Scotland, Wales, and, slightly more distantly, Ireland should abandon their own roots and seek to become cuckoos in another nest.

The essence of the study of folk music or any other folk art is that it cleaves to and grows from the tradition of that folk art.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:42 PM

Newcastle itself is good. The Folk degree students do a cracking night at the Bridge Folk Club. Dunno if the degree is any good though.

D.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:36 PM

I don't know the current norm, but in the early 70s a first year dropout of 40% in any kind of university course did not raise eyebrows.

To the question "Is it any good?" I have to respond with "For what?". In my view such a course should not necessarily be seen in the same light as courses that are meant to lead directly to a specific profession (medicine, law, teaching etc), because it has additional possibilities to offer, such as obtaining and improving skills and knowledge for their own sake, for a start. It should not be judged with the same yardstick therefore.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:29 PM

I think probably we all agree that its time folkmusic did have its place on the curriculums of schools and universities.

As you can tell from the way that certain beliefs are adhered to with blind unquestioning devotion on the Mudcat, the subject has inherent problems for the English. Its a pedant's dream subject. Questioning of some of these extremely silly ideas underpinning the folk revival is simply not allowed.

the reason I think this may be a problem, I saw a performance by people connected with the course. (no name, no packdrill for these are young performers making their first steps). the song about a contemporary issue sounded as though it had been written mid decks on one of Nelson's ships.

seats of learning have always been conservative places in England. The revolutionary theories of Ewan MacColl have sadly been allowed to ossify into a new orthodoxy. The prospect of redbrick turreted enclave where the most opinionated men on mudcat have the power of pass and failure over young people would disenchant many.

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:21 PM

"The Best"?

What other folk music degrees are there?

In England?

Subject: RE: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: johnadams
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:16 PM

Any degree is a fine balance of the students studying, the staff teaching and the resources available.

The degree seems to be well resourced and has, in the Sage, one of the newest and swankiest venues in the country. Whether that's relevant to folk music is, of course arguable.

The staff seem to be made up of very expert practitioners and I am a tiny bit biased as my nearest and dearest, Chris Coe, has just returned from a three day stint teaching up there. That said, when her colleagues include Kathryn Tickell, Catriona McDonald, Stewart Hardie, Sandra Kerr, and many more, and her boss is Vic Gammon then I think the expertise isn't in doubt.

So that leaves the students. Well if they're anything like my tv and radio students there'll be good years, bad years and mixed years. Some people who drop out of my course do so because......
they've got a place at a prestigious institution like the Vancouver/Beijing/Cuba etc Film School
or
they've got a job making cookery programmes for Granada/Sky
or
they've been offered a job on a feature film
or
they've run out of money
or
they've taken too many drugs
or
they've fallen in/out of love
or
they're pregnant
or, or, or...


How do you judge the course in relation to these exits?

And as to the 4 years, it's taken most of us a lifetime and we're probably a way off getting it right yet. I am anyway!

J

Subject: Newcastle Folk Degree - is it any good?
From: GUEST,Acorn54
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 05:34 PM

There seems to be quite a high drop out rate for students on this course
It the quality of the course up there with the best?
Is the degree worth having? Why have the people left before completing and does it need to be four years?