UK guitar luthier

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 10 Oct 25 - 08:50 AM

I swapped the 12-54 for 13-56 and found that this D-18 responds a lot better to the latter.

It wasnt that the setup wasn't ideal for 12s as neck relief, first fret string height and 12th fret action were all within Martin specs.it was that 12s didn't drive the top.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 07:02 AM

It's mostly John at the Hyde branch, Steve (owner and founder)at the STS Apollo branch.

They're a Gibson and Taylor Authorised Service Centre. Andy was part of the team at Salford but he left to set up his own business. Going back further there was Danny, who "went a bit weird" and was let go :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 06:30 AM

They DO intend to keep both. I know the team well from their Salford years. Steve brought two of my instruments 3-4 years ago. They've worked on most guitars I've had.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 06:20 AM

I doubt that it’s possible to cut a nut so precisely for 12s that would bind with 13s, especially as nut slots would tend to get slightly wider with use.

My D18 spent 40 odd years with 13s but I gave it a rest with 12s several years ago.

Picked up one of my guitars from the Guitar Repair Workshop (Hyde branch) yesterday. They’ve had it for three weeks - friendly bunch and a relatively painless process - much less hassle than travelling to their previous premises at PMT in Salford. Sounds like they intend to keep both this and the Manchester branch operating.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 05:46 AM

BWM,

If the nut slots are cut for 12s and you sling on 13s, don't you find the strings would bind there?





-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 25 - 02:44 AM

My D-18 is fine on 12s, and my hands are happier.

I used 13s on both my Martin Dreads for years until the arthritis and Tenosynovitis made it too painful, and I dropped down a gauge. Once I got the relief sorted, no problems, no loss of volume that I’m aware of, and they both sound ‘livelier’ (as In, they ‘have more life in the sound’). I occasionally put a set of 13s on them to check that I’m not deceiving myself, but they make both guitars sound ‘choked’, less ‘life in the sound’ to my ears.

But, as we constantly say, to each his own!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 08 Oct 25 - 06:25 PM

When I send my D-18 to Brook, which should be a week this Monday, I'll put a set of 13-56 in the case.

It was a mistake dropping down a gauge. The lower tension just feels wrong to me. I've had Gibsons and used 12s happily but on this D-18 they're just meh.

Other Martins may well be happy with 12s 'cos not all guitars are the same. Can they be? Short answer: no. Long answer: hell no! :-D

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 08 Oct 25 - 09:09 AM

Oh dear, MtF.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 08 Oct 25 - 07:56 AM

Far from it, Fred: I've never been permitted to forget the After, and remember fragments of the Before with deep and abiding shame. Lesson learnt, the hard way.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 07 Oct 25 - 03:06 PM

But was it worth it, MtF? :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Oct 25 - 12:48 PM

> No such word as "dorgive", dummie!

Dunno about that, Fred, but "dorgiveness" is what you're praying for when you've just chucked up in the front-garden petuniua bed, and are attempting to thread the front-door key into the lock without bending it. Ebriated? moi?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 07 Oct 25 - 09:28 AM

Apollo Music say they expect the Martin bone saddle tomorrow and will post then. I'll pop it in and the next thing is, ship to Brook.

Don't want to hang about - anxious to see their work.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 07 Oct 25 - 04:45 AM

I've heard so much about them but, until I learned of their collection and delivery service, they were out of reach, having no transport.

I used to drive. Had an easy rider custom Harley back in the late 60s through to late 80s but today I'm a pedestrian or at most a cyclist.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 25 - 02:26 AM

I used to own one of their ‘Lamorna’ OMs, it was a beautiful guitar and I was very sorry to have to let it go but I needed some money and it was the only guitar I didn’t take to play out. I went down to their workshop back in Feb 2020, just before the first lock-down, and Andy did an excellent set-up on it, and installed a K&K. I had a very nice morning there, looking round and chatting to them.

They are very good indeed, and their guitars are lovely. I really miss that ‘Lamorna’ but, who knows, there might even be another Brook in my future?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 06:20 PM

Note to self:

No such word as "dorgive", dummie!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 06:12 PM

I've tried a few of their acoustic guitars and found 'em bloody marvellous if you'll dorgive my French.

So when I learned that they do setups AND will also arrange collection and delivery, well it became a no-brainer.

Not sure yet when I'll pull the trigger but it won't be long.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 05:40 PM

^ clever b! Lol.

Yep

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 04:54 PM

Andy Petherick, Simon Smidmore, and Jack Smidmore at Brook Guitars in Devon?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 03:13 PM

I'll put it in when it arrives and my newly found Luthier can have a crack at a setup.

You'll never guess who it is. A clue: 3 of them, working as a small team. They don't turn out many guitars each year but they are highly regarded.

Thinking caps :-D

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 12:06 PM

I half expected it, so I went ahead and ordered a compensated one through Apollo Music. Almost the same Part Number as above but ending 02.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 11:56 AM

BWM,

Don't worry about it. All is good, I've no issue whatsoever ;)

And you were right, CFM don't ship parts to the UK, at least not to the public. Had an email today from Scott. We have to go through CFM authorised dealers here in the UK.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 11:39 AM

Ah, sorry Fred, I’d forgotten that you don’t drive.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 10:11 AM

Thanks, Gilly, didn't know you'd been following :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 10:02 AM

Ah, I
DIDN'T reject both. I rejected one for a good reason, the other I couldn't get back to due to lack of transport, which is
mentioned above.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 09:35 AM

My D18 was over 20 years old before anyone touched it. My guitars tend to only see a luthier if there’s something biggly wrong with them. In fact one is in dock at the moment because the bridge is lifting off!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 09:29 AM

Hey, it's keeping Fred off the street, BW. :-).

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 09:01 AM

Gilly, I have two guys local to both me and Fred, whom Fred has rejected, but who are more than capable of setting my guitars up as I like them, nut slots a hair over first fret height, 12th fret 3 & 2, with 6-thou relief but, like you, I'm fascinated to follow Fred's quest from a safe distance! ;-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 08:47 AM

Fred, I'm enjoying reading about your quest for setup nirvana.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 07:26 AM

Well, let's let him do his 'magic' first.

I want to be sure I'm recommending a superb Luthier. I'm pretty confident but I want to be sure.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 07:04 AM

Are you going to let us into the secret?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 06 Oct 25 - 06:59 AM

Change of plan.

I now have a great luthier. My guitar related problems are over!


-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 05 Oct 25 - 09:02 AM

When I get the Martin bone saddle,I'll target this 12th fret action;

E .105"
A .100
D .095
G .095
B .090
E .085

This should give me good buzz-free action with plenty of power.

Relief and first fret string clearance? As low as I can get away with.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 05 Oct 25 - 05:10 AM

No response yet from Martin.

Clear to me what's happening: they're busy packing the ordered items! :-D

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 04 Oct 25 - 12:56 PM

Vegan was a typo, it should've read veggie.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 04 Oct 25 - 12:14 PM

If you’re vegan, you won’t be looking at bone saddles anyway. I’m firmly of the “If we shouldn’t eat cuddly animals, why are they made of meat?” persuasion.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 04 Oct 25 - 05:35 AM

If they're sold out, PM me your address.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 04 Oct 25 - 05:17 AM

Then you'll get what you want at GuitarGuitar Birmngham at £24.99 each I believe.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Oct 25 - 05:05 AM

Neither my OM-28 Marquis, nor my HD-28V came with a ‘compensated’ saddle from the factory, just a straight, long drop-in saddle (frequently mistaken by people for a ‘cut-through’ saddle). Both sound fine.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 04 Oct 25 - 04:09 AM

Ray,

As a vegan, going into a butcher's for a peice of bone....bleurgh!. Just couldn't do it, mate.

Once it's bleached and packed, somehow it doesn't seem so bad. Don't ask me why, just the way it is for me.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 04 Oct 25 - 03:35 AM

Buy a ready made one from anywhere and it might fit. Start off with the basic material - which isn’t exactly uncommon - cut/shape it yourself with the guitar in hand and, if it doesn’t fit, you know you’re not up to the job!

Guitar parts don’t have to come in labled packets.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 04 Oct 25 - 02:50 AM

Ray,

for those in the UK who don't rate or want a bone saddle from Martin, there is a perfectly good supplier in Chris Alsop


He makes saddles and bridge pins, although the last time I contacted him bridge pins were unavailable,

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 03 Oct 25 - 05:42 PM

Maybe I’m out of date but I’ve always thought that the best saddles were made of bone. The last time my SCTR needed a new one, my luthier took a piece of blank bone from his supply, checked that it had even density using a light bulb, thicknessed it to suit my saddle slot, carved it to profile adjusted the height, restrung the guitar and I took it home an hour or so later.

I totally fail to see what sort of magic bone Martin guitars or anyone else for than matter, can supply. It might be better visiting the local butchers - if you still have one!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Oct 25 - 05:01 PM

Have a look on the GuitarGuitar Birmingham (UK) website, you'll see three - Low, Medium and High.

However, if your D-18 has a compensated saddle, none of them will do unless your tech can compensate it.

Your best bet is to contact Apollo Music and get them to order a compensated one.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 25 - 04:14 PM

So where did he get it from? CFM definitely said they couldn’t or wouldn’t ship it to me a few weeks ago. I checked again a few minutes ago, but it’s out of stock.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Oct 25 - 03:08 PM

I assume this is the Part No:18SL0003

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Oct 25 - 02:45 PM

He's backed it up with a pic of it in its packing.
"CFMartin & co
EST. 1833
Martin Approved Factory
Pre-Shaped Medium Bone Saddle
16" Radius
Drop In"

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Oct 25 - 02:13 PM

Yep, although he didn't get it from Martin, he got it in the UK. But it's a genuine Martin replacement saddle.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Oct 25 - 02:03 PM

BWM,

Hmmm, that's strange 'cos my wife's brother bought the exact same saddle that I'm after and it was shipped to him in Cornwall last week.

I'll double check

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 25 - 01:15 PM

Also, I tried to buy a bone saddle a few weeks ago from the CFM website, and got a message that they don’t ship to the UK.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 25 - 01:13 PM

Bob Colosi is no longer in business, he closed eighteen months or so ago.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Oct 25 - 12:28 PM

So, I'll start with a new saddle and I've chosen a Pre-Shaped Medium Bone 16" Radius Drop In, which you can buy on the Martin website

There are others and Bob Colosi ones may serve as examples, but you may have to shape to get a good fit, though he does provide instructions.

When mine arrives from Martin I'll drop it in and start with neck relief.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 02 Oct 25 - 05:33 AM

The CCGX setup on my D-18 is good but it's not quite what I want, so I've decided that the only way is to do it myself.

I've other, more important things to do at the moment, but watch this space for how not to tips!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 11:05 AM

Jeez, Ray, I hope you can outrun a tortise.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 09:40 AM

That could've been fatal, Ray!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 06:00 AM

Once came across a tortoise on a trail somewhere south of Naples. Fortunately, my chain stayed where it was!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 25 Sep 25 - 04:54 AM

Fortunately that's never happened to me, Fred, but on a cold day you might encounter a big one up on the trail sunning itself and you might have to poke them with a tree limb to clear the way.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 05:55 PM

If you were being chased by a gator, be a bugger if your chain came off :-D

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 24 Sep 25 - 01:14 PM

My favorite ride is over an old small scale railroad bed that runs through a beautiful cypress swamp, full of lovely flowers, semi-tropical vegetation and wildlife including gators, hawks, owls, otters, deer and on rare occasions you might spot a panther or a bobcat.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 23 Sep 25 - 10:46 AM

Drover's not Drivers!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 23 Sep 25 - 10:37 AM

Gilly,

And you'd be welcome, mate. I love cycling along old driver's 'roads'. They're all mostly leafy, green lanes now, just the perfect place to spend an afternoon, eating a packed lunch as you listen to wood pigeons, cuckoos and such.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 23 Sep 25 - 10:14 AM

If not for an ocean I'd join you, Fred. I like to cycle and I love good English ale, which is becoming increasingly hard to come by over here.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 23 Sep 25 - 10:01 AM

The D-18 was set up by CCGX with EJ16, that being what I asked for. But I just couldn't get on with 'em, and I've gone back to Martin Lifespan 2.0 12-54, swapped out the Liquid Metal bridge pins for ebony and I'm basically back to the sound I fell in love with in the store, minus a little bass going down to 12's.

Of course, you'll recognise this, it's tinkering, something I can't stop doing. If I'm not messing with my guitar, I've got my banjo on the bench, and if I'm not doing either I'm cycling off-road along the Grantham-Nottingham canal towpath and stopping at the Dirty Duck for a swift half. Maybe I'll see you along the trail one day and we'll spend an hour setting the world to rights :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 21 Sep 25 - 12:44 PM

Borrowed an extremely well set up Strat at last night's gig, apparently the work of Johnny Kinkade (apologies if I've misspelled the name).I've heard of him and believe he's way down in the south west. Lovely-playing guitar.

Thanks to Mary H for the chance to play it.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 19 Sep 25 - 02:09 PM

Solo. Sometimes I duo with my wife, Aileen, and sometimes with her brother when he's up here, but mostly I take all the abuse myself ;)


-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 19 Sep 25 - 02:00 PM

Weird and fascinating to see a thread about my partner in crime (Stuart and I run sound for folk gigs)

I’ve sent him a link to this page. Brighten up his day if nothing else.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Sep 25 - 01:07 PM

”I've a gig tomorrow night”

Is that solo, duo, band? Anyone I might know? PM me if you don’t want to make it public!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 19 Sep 25 - 12:33 PM

I've a gig tomorrow night, so the D-18 made a timely arrival.

Why that string height over first fret? Well it's all to do with my acidic sweat. I'm having to change strings fortnightly at most, and the 'sawing' back and forth over the slot bottoms would soon create buzzing there I'm sure. So I go higher to get more longevity.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Sep 25 - 12:04 PM

Apart from nut-slot height, that’s exactly my guitars’ setup. I’d find your 1st fret action a few thou too high - mine are all ~0.003” over 1st fret height. But if it’s perfect for you, it’s perfect! Enjoy!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 19 Sep 25 - 10:20 AM

If you want to know anything that I've left out of the review, just ask :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 19 Sep 25 - 09:52 AM

I can't wait until tomorrow, so here we go!

String height at 1st fret: 0.007"
Neck relief at 7th: 0.007"
Action at 12th: E 6/64ths, e 5/64ths

This is exactly what I asked for.

Playability: 9/10
Intonation: 10/10

Comments: they also repaired a small nick on the side of the body at the lower bout and did an excellent job there.

Sounds great, really got some oomph. I was concerned that going down to 12's might rob me of that but not a bit of it. I beefed up the sound further by adding Martin Liquid Metal bridge pins.

Went over their work looking for faults and found none.

So you know what I'm going to say - highly recommended. But bear in mind this only refers to CCGX's Plek service. I can't speak for their non-Plek setups.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 19 Sep 25 - 05:24 AM

My D-18 is back home!

I'll play it today and review here tomorrow, along with string heights at first fret, neck relief and action at the 12th.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 19 Sep 25 - 03:17 AM

Some might say "Why didn't you try the guitar at Stuart's before you left?"

I couldn't 'cos arthritis was giving me jip in my left hand, and I couldn't go back later 'cos i don't drive these days
and my driver friend was no longer available.

One of the beauties of CCGX (for me) is that they will arrange collection and delivery.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 18 Sep 25 - 03:36 PM

Ed,

You know me better than you think, lad lol.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 18 Sep 25 - 03:25 PM

Just be sure that when you get it back, and hopefully love it, don't start tinkering with the truss rod again! :-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 18 Sep 25 - 03:22 PM

There was slight buzz on the G and D.

A string tickler would've loved the action - super low and no buzz.

But I'm a heavy strummer and that action was too low for me. I was having a new saddle, a Plek and thought 'Let's have new nut, too, and let the Plek cut the slots' :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Sep 25 - 02:44 PM

I wouldn’t have faffed around with bone-dust and CA, I’d have put a shim under the nut. But it’s each to their own I guess (I think I’ve said that before!). What were the heights? Should be a hair over 1st fret height (maybe 2 - 3 thou over).

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Sep 25 - 02:40 PM

Were you getting buzzing on the first two or three frets?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 18 Sep 25 - 02:06 PM

It's a 2024 D-18.

Well the nut slots had been lowered by Stuart, a little lower than I like. I didn't want the bone dust and super glue trick, so I had CCGX make and fit a new one.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Sep 25 - 12:28 PM

Isn’t it a new-ish guitar? Wondering why you needed a new nut?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 18 Sep 25 - 10:34 AM

The replacement nut cracked, so they had to make another!

But, apparently, she rings like a bell. Well let's see if that's true. If I find a fault, I WILL tell you as I want to be honest in the review of their workmanship.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 18 Sep 25 - 06:49 AM

Bumping the thread to say that my D-18 arrives home tomorrow.

Now the excitement level goes through the roof :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 17 Sep 25 - 10:00 AM

Received a call from Kim today. Work has been completed and my D-18 is ready for shipping "tomorrow".

However, I seem to recall that CCGX don't ship guitars close to a weekend as they want to avoid a possibility of them sitting in a courier depot over Saturday and Sunday.

I may be wrong, we'll see.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 13 Sep 25 - 11:45 AM

BWM,

No,but I like this D-18. There's a bond that I haven't felt with any other guitar, so I have a vested interest in taking care of it, preventing damage.

If slotting its bridge will help protect the bridge plate...well, I'd want it doing. CCGX may have delayed it but they haven't prevented it.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Sep 25 - 11:16 AM

Aaahh, sorry Ray, didn’t know it was you! But that’s exactly why Guests are asked to post using a constant handle of course, otherwise there could be multiple Guests and nobody’s sure who’s talking to whom!

Fred - I’ve found that there don’t seem to be many UK techs/luthiers who understand the benefits of bridge-slotting, so I don’t even bother asking them, I do the job myself - I’m reasonably handy with tools, I made my own slotting saw, and I have a set of needle-files that I use to smooth the slots after I’ve finished with the saw. I have one guitar that I’m not sure I’ll keep long-term, and that I haven’t slotted - it’s a year old now and I’m keeping a close eye on the (slotted) pins and the bridge-plate. Going forward, if I see any evidence of the plate and pins getting worn prematurely, I’ll slot the holes and fit solid pins, if not, I’ll leave it alone.

But, as I keep saying, it’s a personal choice. I’m persuaded (by some top-flight American luthiers including Collings) that bridge-slotting is the best route but, if someone is unsure, I guess they should leave their guitars be. I’m not trying to push anyone else to follow what I do.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 13 Sep 25 - 10:55 AM

Well in my case, I thought about having the bridge slotted and using solid pins, and I talked it over with CCGX.

However, I wasn't really sure that that's what I wanted, and they picked up on that and weren't keen to do it

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 13 Sep 25 - 10:44 AM

Backwoodsman - it was me, just continuing our discussion from 28 August.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Sep 25 - 08:55 AM

And, AFAIC, there’s no fire to throw coal on, no argument. It’s a matter of personal preference - what one believes is the ‘best’ method of providing clearance for the string in a pin-bridge pin hole. Each builder does what they feel is the best (or, certainly in Martin’s case, the cheapest) solution.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Sep 25 - 08:49 AM

Yes, sharing the slot also used to be the practice of CF Martin. The slots in the holes and the pins are shallower than they were in fully-slotted bridges and modern slotted pins, and the mass of the string was ‘shared’ between the bridge and the pin. I’m not sure of the dates they began and ended that practice, but I’m pretty certain it was a ‘half-way house’ position between slotted bridges and when they began to leave the pin-holes unslotted and using fully-slotted pins.

So, what point are you actually trying to make?

On another point, the forum rule regarding ‘Guest’ postings is that the ‘guest’ should use a ‘handle’ and stick with that same ‘handle’ each time he/she posts. Otherwise, those of us who are members have no way of knowing which ‘Guest’ they are talking to in the event of multiple ‘Guest’ postings to a thread.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 25 - 08:13 AM

Backwoodsman - just to throw some more coal on the slotted bridge/slotted pins argumennt. Two of my Santa Cruz guitars have both slotted a slotted bridge and slotted pins. The third is still in it’s case but I bet it’ll be the same.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 12 Sep 25 - 10:54 AM

A call to CCGX has revealed that it will be another two weeks before my D-18 is shipped home. This is two weeks longer than I was first told.

However, they've Plek'd many guitars for me and the results have always been good, so should be worth the wait *fingers crossed* :)




-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 09 Sep 25 - 10:09 AM

No word from CCGX but at least my banjo is re-assembled.

Been chain-sawing a downed tree a local farmer kindly gave us. Storing it to let it dry out for use in the wood-burning stove - just the job for winter.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 08 Sep 25 - 04:44 AM

Ordered 10 sets of EJ16, microfibre cloths, JD 01 Fretboard cleaner, nut sauce, so that they're here before my D-18 is shipped home - and, for me, bicarbonate of soda to tame my toxic sweat!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 05:34 PM

Drove down from the Scottish borders this morning - not even looked at a guitar for over two weeks.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 05:04 PM

^ blimey, didn't think it was THAT far.

I don't drive and rely on a mate. A tame tech within pushbike range would be ideal for me!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 04:02 PM

Not that near, Fred. 57 miles as the crow flies.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 02:38 PM

By the way, Ray, heard of The Setup Shop? They're not too far from you in Warsop, Mansfield. They carry out repairs, re-frets, setups, and they have a website if you'd like to take a look.

Never been to 'em, so it's not a recommendation.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 02:05 PM

Ray,

And that's why I've avoided the temptation. The job will take as long as it needs to. At some point I'll get a call and the D-18 will be shipped home.

In the meantime, I've got a banjo to assemble and a Strat I can borrow if I need to :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 11:53 AM

It’s weekend, he’s probably in the pub! Enquiries along the lines of “How’s it going?” Invariably make the job take longer.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 07 Sep 25 - 06:40 AM

I'm having a hard time resisting the temptation to text CCGX Plek operator Kim Rodgers over how it's going with my D-18.

Will I get pictures? Will some big noise like Clapton jump in and commandeer my D-18's Plek slot?

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 10:28 AM

One thing Kim DID say, after seeing the D-18 is that the neck was "Too straight" at 0.006", knowing my playing style. 0.010" is more me. And I rarely go beyond the 5th fret without a capo, my favourite being a G7 Newport.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 09:49 AM

So, took the call from Kim.

Gone for a setup with EJ16, so 12's.

Should be ready for shipping back in 2-3 weeks.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 05 Sep 25 - 06:32 AM

Expecting a call this afternoon from the Plek operator, Kim Rodgers, to go over a few last details before my D-18 goes in the machine.

The wheels are turning!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 04 Sep 25 - 11:54 AM

Jerry,

Absolutely, that IS one of the beauties of a banjo.

The tinkering, though, can become a frustrating search for the Holy Grail :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 04 Sep 25 - 11:23 AM

The beauty of banjos is that, unlike guitars, you can dismantle them and then put them them back together to improve the set-up, but I have long since learnt that once you have one well set up, it’s best to leave it alone. Otherwise, it’s a bit like FatherTed’s slightly dented car, trying to get it back to the original state.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 04 Sep 25 - 10:36 AM

'cos I have time on my hands, it was a toss- up between banjos and posting a list of guitar techs whose work I found poor.

I decided I couldn't do the latter 'cos their bad work may have been a one-off and not typical, so banjos got it lol.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 04 Sep 25 - 10:25 AM

LOL.

I get that banjos don't appeal to all, so I'll leave it there and get back to thread topic :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 04 Sep 25 - 09:53 AM

Is this an invitation for the banjo jokes?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 04 Sep 25 - 08:21 AM

As far as replacing the head, I'd say enjoy your banjo, play it, have fun and if, down the road, you want to experiment with different heads, fine but get a little experience first. Don't try too much too soon.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 04 Sep 25 - 08:04 AM

Jerry,

Yes, you should ideally learn how to remove your banjo neck. However, if you're new to banjo and it's your ONLY instrument, trying to do it and maybe not succeeding and sitting there with possibly no access to a tech and wishing you'd left it alone...

Banjo techs are not numerous in the UK, and I never said they are, but a quick online search should bring up 2 or 3.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 04 Sep 25 - 07:44 AM

You mention banjo tech as if they are legion, when they are few and far between in the UK these days. I agree that removing the neck is best avoided, but it’s one of the tasks you have to learn yourself eventually, given that you can’t replace the head properly on some older models otherwise.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 04 Sep 25 - 06:51 AM

The reason my banjo is totally dismantled on my workbench is to give me something to do, so that I don't keep pestering CCGX over how it's going with my D-18, which I otherwise would.

And, breaking down a banjo, you get an otherwise unavailable opportunity to clean components like the tone ring which is almost always tucked away out of reach.

BUT DON'T REMOVE THE NECK FROM THE POT IF YOU ARE NEW TO BANJO MAINTENANCE. If that's you, you should take the banjo to a banjo tech.



-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 04:13 PM

As-a-aand…100! ;-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 04:12 PM

”Once did a gig with the late Peter Sarstedt”

I did a gig supporting his brother, Richard (a.k.a. Eden Kane), at the time he had ‘Boys Cry’ in the charts. He was a very nice guy, a great performer, and sickeningly good-looking. He was also very kind - my band’s gear was pretty clapped-out and, when we did our sound-check, he suggested we used his PA and his band’s amps and drum-kit. That must have been the best we ever sounded!

His band was ‘The Downbeats’ - I seem to recall they were Nottingham-based.

Eden Kane is in his 80s now, still doing live gigs, often with Marty Wilde and The Wilde-cats. And he’s still sickeningly good-looking! :-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 12:29 PM

Nottingham City Guitars would let you take home one of their guitars if yours was to stay there needing work. Don't know if that's still the case.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 12:00 PM

Once did a gig with the late Peter Sarstedt - he didn’t even own a guitar; he went out and hired a Martin 12 String.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 10:06 AM

My D-18 has safely arrived, so the peanuts did their job!

I've borrowed a Strat for tonight's gig - Little Red Rooster gear!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 03 Sep 25 - 05:43 AM

Well, my D-18 must be nearing its destination. In expecting a call from CCGX today to discuss Plek date....

Like I said, they're always battling with a heavy workload and things don't always go as planned.

But if you can put up with that, what you'll get is great workmanship, at least it's always been that way for me.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 02 Sep 25 - 03:01 PM

All a matter of priorities, Fred. My wife is self sufficient, I never wanted kids and I can’t stand dogs. Just the house, a motorhome and a couple of dozen instruments to support.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 02 Sep 25 - 11:56 AM

Well I WOULD think about another guitar, Ray, but I've got a wife and 2 daughters, that's 3 dependants...



4 if you count the dog!



-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 02 Sep 25 - 10:57 AM

Only one guitar! Apart from all the others, I even had two D18s for a time until I decided to trade one of them in. Perhaps it’s time to start looking for a backup?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 02 Sep 25 - 07:50 AM

My Martin D-18 was collected this morning.

I expect it to be gone 3-4 weeks as CCGX always has a heavy workload. I have no other guitar but I do have a 5-string open-back banjo which is currently totally disassembled on my workbench.

I should be playing it but the tinkerer in me must mess :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 05:26 PM

BWM,

Honestly, I'm confident CCGX will do a great job.

There, I've stuck my neck out! ;)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 03:49 PM

You must have very strong hands indeed, Fred, that action would be unplayable for me. Definitely a hard-hitter’s action!

I await your report back here with high anticipation!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 02:19 PM

Tuesday my D-18 will be heading down the A1 to that London.

I'm anticipating a state-of-the-art setup "Neck straight as an arrow, plays like butter, rings for days"!

Chose to have it set up with D'Addario EJ17 'cos, as I've said before, I get no extra life from coated strings and so the extra cost of 'em is (for me) money wasted.

Gone for a heavy strummer setup: 0.003" above 1st fret, 0.010" neck relief and 7/64 and 6/64 at the 12th.

When it returns, I'll write an honest review including total cost.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 11:34 AM

NotE

Oh I give up lol

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 11:31 AM

Not to self:

erm...12TH dummie!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 11:25 AM

Actually, I put 12rg fret action but meant neck relief. I should take more water with it!

The more I straighten a guitar neck, the brighter the tone seems to get.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 10:42 AM

Raising the height of a saddle usually increases volume and vice versa. As far as saddle heights go, I’m used to so many actions, neck widths and different instruments that I’ve no idea what any of them are - I just get on and play the things!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 31 Aug 25 - 08:46 AM

^^^ interesting.

I'd call myself a heavy strummer, happy with neck relief at 0.010" and 12th fret action E 7/64, e 6/64.



12th fret action affects tone (at least to MY ear), making it brighter the lower you go. Anyone else noticed this or is my imagination?

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Aug 25 - 05:00 PM

I fingerpick using plastic thumb-picks and Propik ‘Fingertone’ nickel fingerpicks, and strum using BC or JD Nylon flatpicks. I’d say for both styles I’m a medium-hitter.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 30 Aug 25 - 11:48 AM

BWM,

Looking at your setup measurements above, how would you describe your playing style?

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 03:15 PM

Yes, I’ve a feeling you might be right there, Ray. I seem to recall seeing that on an AGF thread not long ago - I was very surprised, as were a number of others, I expected that, like Collings, SCGC would have a more traditional approach. Apologies if I got it wrong.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 09:08 AM

Santa Cruz? From what I can remember (my three Santa Cruz guitars are several hundred miles away) they use slotted pins but I’ll check when I get home in a couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 08:54 AM

It’s helpful when the bridgeplate has been damaged - e.g. by slotted pins allowing ball-ends to ‘creep’ into the pin holes - but not something I’d recommend if the bridge-plate is in decent condition.

I used that technique for a short while about twenty years ago when a Martin I owned at the time had exactly that problem - the cheap ‘n’ nasty soft plastic slotted pins that CFM used had distorted and allowed the ball ends to push them rearwards in the straight-drilled holes, and the ball-ends ‘crept’ into the holes. But, when I learned about bridge reaming and slotting and got advice from a couple of Martin experts on the UMGF, I reamed the pin holes with a 5° reamer to make the pins seat properly down to the collar, and slotted the holes. Once that was done, and I replaced the original pins with Antique Acoustics Galalith (a very hard plastic made from milk) unslotted pins, there were no further problems.

I don’t like anything that can interfere with the transmission of string-vibrations to the guitar’s soundboard (which is why I won’t have under-saddle pickups in my guitars, and use K&K under-soundboard pickups instead) and, to my way of thinking, an important part of the transmission chain is the contact between the ball-end and bridgeplate. Putting a second ball on the string is adding a barrier, however slight, to that transmission chain.

That’s my take on it anyway - I can’t offer any ‘proof’, it’s just ‘logical’ to my mind. Others may differ and that’s fine by me - ‘opinions are like arses’, etc. etc. ;-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 08:00 AM

An idea (not mine):

Save 6 ball ends. When restringing, slide a ball down each string so that there's a flat surface to push against the bridge plate.

Never tried this, but what do YOU think? Good idea or BS?

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 05:38 AM

Well I've been talked out of slotting the bridge, at least for now.

I can see where CCGX are coming from, not wanting to do a job that I may decide I don't like.

I'll go with new nut, new saddle, Plek, and think some more about having the bridge slotted.

Thanks lads
-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 05:16 AM

Howard Klepper - bloody autocorrect!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 04:50 AM

I follow the advice of some of the top American luthiers - John Arnold, Frank Ford (Frets.com), Howard Klemperer, and others, all of whom strongly recommend slotted bridges over slotted pins. They have plenty of evidence, all being experts on repair and maintenance of vintage instruments, as well as being builders of modern guitars, that slotted bridges with solid unslotted pins are better for bridge-plate preservation, due to their making a more mechanically sound connection between the string, bridge, and bridge-plate.

I think the fact that high-end builders such as Collings, Dana Bourgeois, SCGC, etc. slot the pin-holes and install solid pins speaks for itself.

But, as I said earlier, opinions are like arses… ;-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 28 Aug 25 - 03:54 AM

Sorry, misunderstood what you were asking - I have more instruments with tailpieces than fixed bridges!

I suspect that you’ll find people with firm opinions on both sides of the slot or not to slot argument but none who can actually provide evidence of which is better or even whether it makes the slightest difference.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 05:39 PM

Anyhoo, I now have a date when the courier (APC) will collect my D-18: 2 Sept.

Collection and delivery is all arranged by CCGX, not me.

And I know, I know. But I've had a LOT of guitars shipped by APC. There's never been an issue :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 05:18 PM

I SHOULD have said slotted bridge pin holes to be fair.

I can see where Ray was going. Take a banjo bridge, most have an ebony strip along the top. Arguably you could call that a saddle and it's slotted for each string, the slots being little more than string guides.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 01:07 PM

And, regarding peoples’ opinions on ‘slotting - yes or no’, as my son says, “Opinions are like arses - everybody has one”! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 12:51 PM

Since 2009, I’ve reamed and slotted all of my pin-bridge guitars’ pin-holes and installed solid pins. I do it for the reasons enumerated above.

I have never heard any change in tone resulting from slotting the bridge, although I’ve read anecdotal evidence from others that they heard improvements when they slotted their bridges. I have to say that I’ve never heard a tonal change either from changing pin material, so maybe I have tin ears? ;-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 12:47 PM

Ray - we’re talking slotted bridges here, not slotted saddles.

Major builders such as Martin and Gibson used to slot the pin-holes in the bridge, and use solid (un-slotted) pins. Some high-end modern builders still use that practice - Collings, for instance, and the Martin ‘Authentic’ Series still have slotted bridges and un-slotted pins.

Some time in the mid-‘40s, Martin stopped slotting the pin-holes and started using slotted pins. It’s difficult to find the reason set out anywhere, but it’s generally accepted that, as the company moved to ever-greater production numbers, slotted pins were cheaper than slotting the bridge, and therefore they chose to go with them in the name of economy (and thus more profit).

The benefits of slotted bridges with un-slotted pins include…

1) A more solid contact between the ball-end of the string and the bridgeplate
2) because of 1), Improved tuning stability
3) the tendency of the ball ends to ‘creep’ into the pin-holes is greatly reduced, or even completely removed
4) reduced wear on the bridge-plate/pin holes (because of 1 and 3)
5) improved break-angle when the saddle is low (although this can also be achieved by ramping the top of the hole rather than full slotting)

There may be other advantages, but those are the main ones.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 12:30 PM

No, Ray,slotting the bridge...you know, so you can use unslotted bridge pins. Does it improve tone, do you think?

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 11:16 AM

Slotted bridges are mainly for guitars with, say, a trapeze style tailpiece - where the string fixings don’t necessarily have the same string spacing as the strings passing over the saddle. Consequently, slotting is necessary to keep the string courses in place. I’m not aware of any fixed bridge guitar that comes with a slotted saddle.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 27 Aug 25 - 07:06 AM

Slotting the bridge - yay or nay?

Was thinking about having it done but the guys who are going to do Plek and other stuff, they said no.

So, what's the benefits of having it done? Increased break angle, so more down pressure on the saddle. What else? Does it improve sound IYO?

Cheers
-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 25 Aug 25 - 02:09 PM

BWM,

You're actually not far out!

When I have work done (to our house, my guitar, whatever), first thing I do is look for bad workmanship, getting quite annoyed if I find any. But I wouldn't call that picky, it's merely wanting what I paid for :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Aug 25 - 12:03 PM

"I bet you that it will come back better than it left and THAT will be money well spent, right? Lol."

That's a question only you can answer, and I get a distinct impression that you're someone who is very difficult to please! ;-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 25 Aug 25 - 10:18 AM

All booked in at CCGX with accompanying email detailing work needed, contact details etc.

I'll let you know how it's going AND give my honest opinion when I get it back.

Yes, yes, I know but here's the bet:

I bet you that it will come back better than it left and THAT will be money well spent, right? Lol.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 06:12 PM

Màrtin-wise, 3/32" for the E is about as low as you want to go. You CAN go lower but you'll lose a lot of the "fire".

Many acoustic guitarists I run into have nut slot height and relief as low as possible and raise saddle height.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 04:22 PM

Yes, I got the McNally sorted out myself - too much relief and saddle too low causing buzzing in the middle of the neck, so I flattened the neck a touch and raised the saddle slightly. Perfect 3/32” x 5/64” action now, with no buzz.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 03:08 PM

BWM,

As far as criticism goes, never took your comments to be that. If you want me to elaborate on anything I've said in this thread, you go right ahead and ask ;)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 01:58 PM

BWM,

Did you get that McNally sorted? Last I heard you were wondering if it needed a neck reset.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 01:39 PM

Yes, I used to own a Brook Lamorna, and I went down to their workshop in Hittesleigh, Devon, for the first set-up and a look around. Lovely guitars, very nice workshop, and a great pair of guys (three, if you include Simon’s son Jack, who does the inlay work).

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 01:09 PM

One place I WOULD go for a setup (distance no object) is KGB of Birkenhead. I've heard some amazing things about them.

Similarly Brook Guitars who do repairs and setups as well as great guitar builds.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 12:54 PM

Accuracy is 144 thousandth's of a millimetre. I always get that wrong!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 12:30 PM

BWM,

If you have a guitar Plekked, a new nut is the way to go. The machine cuts the nut slots. It's incredibly accurate at 1400th's of a millimetre.

Is it worth the expense? That depends on you but to me it is. I've had setups with Plek and without, and I've always found Plek better.

Bear in mind, though, that a Plek machine is only as good as the operator.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 12:27 PM

Yeah, I worked that one out!

BTW, another tech who is highly recommended for setups, refrets, new nuts and saddles, etc. is Kate Phillips (GuitarKes) up near Whitby. Kate is the wife of Steve Phillips who was with Mark Knopfler and Brendan Croker in the Notting Hillbillies. She has a nice little workshop in the garden of their house, and she did a quick job sorting out buzzing on my old Brook. And it’s a very pleasant run over the Humber Bridge up to Whitby (although further for you than it is for me!).

Check out her FB Page - https://www.facebook.com/guitarkes?

I don’t like shipping guitars so I always take them personally - even had a day-trip to Southampton to see Vince Hockey with my old J-40 a few years ago, and two trips to Dave King down near Newbury (he did a B&S re-finish on my D-18 - don’t ask, long story!).

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 12:12 PM

Shipping not shopping! Lol

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 12:11 PM

As I said, your guitar, your money, your choice. No criticism intended, just enjoying a discussion on my favourite topic (guitars), and trying to understand ‘the other guy’s POV’.

Personally, I always play a newly set-up guitar in front of the luthier/tech before I pay and take it home, then any problems can be sorted there and then (had to do that once when I picked a guitar up and the 12th fret action was too low for my liking - fixed there and then and I left a happy bunny).

I guess I’m pretty fortunate in knowing what setup works for me, all four of my acoustics (two Martins, a Lowden, and a McNally) are set up the same…

Nut slots: a hair (0.002” - 0.003”) over first fret height
Neck Relief: 0.006”
12th fret action: 3/32” Low ‘E’, 5/64” High ‘e’

…so they all ‘feel’ the same (apart from neck-profile variances, and I’m able to check and replicate those myself if anything starts to feel ‘off’, and I can give the measurements to a luthier/tech when I have a first setup done on a new guitar - usually eight weeks or so after I get it.

You didn’t mention problems with the nut - what’s going on with it?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 12:07 PM

Yes, it is expensive. A Plek setup alone is £170, then there's a new bone nut, saddle and shopping.

But I love this D-18. Anything that it needs it's going to get.

Why Charlie Chandler's Guitar Experience (CCGX)? Well, I've used em for years and only one minor issue - and that was as my fault! :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 11:50 AM

BWM,

OK, here goes:

I didn't want the saddle touched. However, it has been, so keeping it now isn't as important to me as it once was. Can you see that?

Second, although Stuart's setup is good, the more I play it the more I realise that it doesn't suit ME.

But if you go there, tell him what you want and ask him to consult you before makes any changes, you should be ok. I didn't do that and maybe I should have.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 11:23 AM

”Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred - PM

So, I have my Martin D-18 home.

A quick tune to pitch and the test.
Chords and single notes sound good. There's less relief and slightly less saddle, sounds livelier.

All that gets a ? from me.

Intonation is spot-on, though it was before to be fair, but it's still as good and that's the point.

Stuart Palmer has definitely improved what was a very good D-18 when I handed it to him, and I'll certainly use him again.”

”Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred - PM
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 09:18 AM

The D-18 is now booked in at CCGX for a new nut, new saddle and a Plek setup.

Again, I'll review the work done and if I find a fault I WILL tell you as I want to be honest.”

You’re losing me, Fred! If you were happy with the guitar after SP had set it up (apart from him adjusting the original saddle and not installing a replacement - a complete non-issue AFAIC, but it’s your guitar, not mine!), I’m wondering why, two days later, you’ve decided to take it elsewhere for another setup, a new nut and saddle, and a Plek - that sounds an expensive exercise.

As I said, your guitar (and your money!) not mine, and you’re absolutely free to do as you wish, but I’m wondering what your reasoning is? You don’t have to explain if you don’t wish to, but I’m just a little perplexed…

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 09:18 AM

The D-18 is now booked in at CCGX for a new nut, new saddle and a Plek setup.

Again, I'll review the work done and if I find a fault I WILL tell you as I want to be honest.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 09:05 AM

BWM & Ray,

I get all that BUT, me being me, I like to keep the original saddle (nut too) as is, so that I can always go back.

The original action and relief was perfect for me. The relief was 0.010" at the 7th but at the 12th fret I didn't measure the action.

"Does it matter?" To me, yes. The setup Stuart did is good in itself, I'm not faulting that, but what I AM saying is that if you go to him for a setup, he doesn't work with numbers, he does it by feel. That "feel"   may or may not suit YOU.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 07:40 AM

In a modern D-18 it’s bone Ray.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 24 Aug 25 - 03:51 AM

Backwoodsman - not just the shop but the man himself. I think he died back in the 80s. It still has the original plastic bridge pins. The 70s are thought by some to be their worst decade.

Fred - I wouldn’t worry about it - it’s only a bit of bone (or plastic) and nobody but you will know.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Aug 25 - 04:18 PM

@Ray - I do remember Ivor Mairants, and I bought a guitar a year ago from his old shop, now Mak’s Guitars.

@Fred - does it really matter? If your action needed lowering, and you used a new saddle, the (unadjusted) old one would be too tall, so pretty much useless. Saddles are pretty much regarded as consumables and are easily replaceable. I took the original saddle out of my D-18 and replaced it with a new, much better one from Bob Colosi about 12 years ago. The new one is still in the guitar, the original one is somewhere in my ‘stuff’ drawer, I haven’t seen it for years. If there’s ever a need to replace the ‘new’ saddle, I’ll just get another ‘new’ one.

But I don’t get emotional about guitars, and I don’t worry about keeping things ‘original’, it needs to do what I want it to do, and if I want to change something, I just do it - so my D-18 has Waverly Tuners which replaced the Gotohs it came with, and which I gave away, the bridge-pin holes are reamed and slotted, and the plastic slotted pins replaced with solid (unslotted) ebony pins, I put a strap-button in the neck-heel, and installed a K&K pickup.

But that’s just me, and I realise my way isn’t everyone else’s way - to each their own, just as it should be.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 23 Aug 25 - 03:20 PM

One issue I DO have with Stuart is that he removed material from the bottom of the original saddle, rather than leave it as is and make a new one like I asked.

Slightly p*ssed off about that.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 23 Aug 25 - 02:31 PM

1973 - £190 new - bought it from a chap called Ivor Mairantz, who you might have heard of! Lives in £80 worth of Calton case but doesn’t get played that often nowadays.

I use Newtones on one of my OMs as it needs ball end strings and I need to order custom sets.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Aug 25 - 02:23 PM

Ray, if your D-18 doesn’t have an adjustable truss rod, it must be dated Pre-1985? I’d love to see and hear it!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Aug 25 - 02:20 PM

Correct Ray. On the occasions I use round-cores (usually Newtones) I don’t cut until they’re tuned up. But for hex-cores, I find the ‘Taylor’ method quick, easy, and reliable. I’m a comparatively recent convert to the ‘Taylor’ method, for most of the 64 years I’ve been playing I’ve used either the ‘one over, the rest under’ method, or the method that employs a ‘lock’ by wrapping the free end under and around the captive part of the string.

As you say, each to their own way, but I’ve never found an easier method than the Taylor method.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 23 Aug 25 - 12:23 PM

Each to their own way. The Taylor “cut-em first”method is probably fine for hex-core strings but try that with round cores and you’re likely to hit trouble.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Aug 25 - 09:27 AM

Here’s how I’ve done it for the past umpteen years. No knots, no ‘locks’, no blood-letting, neat and tidy, quick, and rock-solid tuning.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 23 Aug 25 - 08:51 AM

I install strings with a Z bend. Fast and easy and it works for me.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 23 Aug 25 - 05:14 AM

Never done it like that, Ray, but no harm in giving it a go, cheers.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 23 Aug 25 - 03:22 AM

Fred, try winding round the post a couple of times, under tension, before poking the end through the hole and turning the knob to bring the string up to pitch. It’s a lot quicker and I find I shed a lot less blood when re-stringing a mandolin this way.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 22 Aug 25 - 06:24 PM

Ray,

When stringing up, all I do at the headstock is thread through, put two fingers under the string between nut and first fret to get a little slack, wind to pitch and snip off the excess.

Never had a string slip.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 22 Aug 25 - 05:27 PM

Not saying I need it done Fred, had it sorted by a, now retired, luthier friend of mine some years ago - the neck was twisted not just warped.

Yes, why do people use the “string locking” technique? Don’t tell me that it stops them slipping. I’ve been changing strings for 50+ years and never had a problem.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Chris_S
Date: 22 Aug 25 - 05:10 PM

Steve Kendall did a fabulous job on my new Alvarez guitar. Beautiful to play after his attention which was badly needed for a great sounding guitar but poorly set up and with some sharp fret ends. Totally sorted for a really modest price. He has a website, can really recommend if you are near Abingdon/Wantage area of UK.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 22 Aug 25 - 04:35 PM

Try this place, Ray:

CCGX
020 89731441

If you can't get there, they can arrange collection and delivery. I've used 'em for years.

Don't know if they would do the relief work on your Martin but wouldn't hurt to call 'em.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 22 Aug 25 - 02:06 PM

Ray,

A tricky job for sure, though some in the UK could tackle it. Any ideas where to go? I've got a suggestion but it's a heck of a road trip for you.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 22 Aug 25 - 12:46 PM

What Stuart DOES do though, if he does a restring, is lock them off at the headstock. That'll have you cursing when you want 'em off!





-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 22 Aug 25 - 12:05 PM

Good to hear Fred. The only way to alter the relief on my D18 is to plane the fingerboard and re-fret the neck. Not a job for the inexperienced as pressing the new frets in is, in itself, likely to reduce the neck relief. (A once-in-a-lifetime change from medium strings to light several years ago, made no noticeable difference.)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Aug 25 - 11:11 AM

Good to hear, Fred, although I never doubted you’d be happy!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 22 Aug 25 - 09:12 AM

That ? started life as a tick lol.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 22 Aug 25 - 09:09 AM

So, I have my Martin D-18 home.

A quick tune to pitch and the test.
Chords and single notes sound good. There's less relief and slightly less saddle, sounds livelier.

All that gets a ? from me.

Intonation is spot-on, though it was before to be fair, but it's still as good and that's the point.

Stuart Palmer has definitely improved what was a very good D-18 when I handed it to him, and I'll certainly use him again.



Stuart Palmer (Luthier),
Doncaster
07775 230837

I have no hesitation in recommending him.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 21 Aug 25 - 05:26 AM

Another is 'Rings for days'. I bet!.

Called Stuart today. My D-18 is ready to collect, so I'll be heading to Doncaster tomorrow.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 25 - 05:16 PM

‘Grand Piano-like’ is the nonsense that boils my p**s. Along with the ‘Choir of angels’ BS.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 19 Aug 25 - 02:11 PM

Ray,

"Choir of angels" was a bit tongue-in-cheek, as was "Play like butter". I often read such things on forums "Neck straight as an arrow, no buzzing, plays like butter!" :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 19 Aug 25 - 12:25 PM

Hope it doesn’t sound like a “choir of angels”. If it were mine, I’d want it to sound like a D18. Are you confusing it with a Taylor?

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 19 Aug 25 - 09:10 AM

BWM,

Stuart is someone whose work I don't know 'cos it's the first job he's done for me, so there's bound to be some "Did I do the right thing?" going on.

There still is, and there WILL be until I have the D-18 in my hands and try it.

If my arthritis will let me, I'll do    Dylan's It's All Over Now Baby Blue for him ;)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 25 - 07:44 AM

I’ll be very surprised if you’re not a happy bunny!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 19 Aug 25 - 06:56 AM

Collecting my D-18 on 22 Aug, so I'll let you know over the weekend what I think of Stuart’s work.

To be honest, I'm expecting my D-18 to play like butter and sound like a choir of angels ;)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 18 Aug 25 - 07:29 AM

Nothing yet.

But just in case Stuart Palmer doesn't get my D-18 singing like it did, I've got a Plan B:

A guy I lost track of but managed to find again. This guy is as good as it gets and only charges £50 for a setup.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 02:03 PM

BWM,

I didn't get concerned. If I had, I wouldn't have left my D-18 there.

But I can see now why he may not want to use new strings...

In any event, I'll submit a full report here when I get the D-18 back, so stay tuned ;)

-F





-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 01:40 PM

Not necessarily. When I do my own set-ups or other adjustments/alterations to my guitars, I do them with the existing strings on so that I can easily detect any resulting tonal changes and, if there are any, I know it’s due to the work I’ve done and not the new strings.

And he is inclined to have the occasional ‘leg-pull’ when you’re talking to him - personally I wouldn’t be disturbed by it. ;-)

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 16 Aug 25 - 01:31 PM

Let me throw this at you and, hopefully, you'll tell me not to worry lol.

So you know where my D-18 is but, when I mentioned that I'd put a set of strings in the case, he asked why.

Seemed a bit strange to me. Wouldn't a setup be done with a new set of strings? I'd have thought so.

So what's YOUR ten penn'orth?

Thanks in advance
Fred

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 14 Aug 25 - 02:44 PM

There's an email linked to him:

[e-mail]

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 14 Aug 25 - 12:35 PM

Just pop this in here for any guitarists in the Cambridge area or who can get there.

In late November 2023, Chris Andrews was working at PRS Guitars in the city.

This is a fantastic tech, trained by Taylor Guitars to Gold level. If he's still there, you couldn't take your guitar to a better tech.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 14 Aug 25 - 11:07 AM

I've asked that a new bone nut should be fitted if any of the slots on the existing nut are too low - and, if any saddle work is planned, fit a new bone one, leaving the existing saddle as is.

I'm hoping for a wazzo setup, the voice of a nightingale!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 13 Aug 25 - 11:21 AM

BWM,

His intention is to move to the town's Arts Centre. I think the move is on, although he doesn't seem to have a date yet.

Likeable chap and very talkative - had a job to get away!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 25 - 10:53 AM

A bit tight and steep, aren’t they? I understand he’s due to move to new, much better premises, but there’s some kind of hold-up.

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 13 Aug 25 - 05:06 AM

Stuart Palmer can be a bit tricky to find.

Finding Copley Road is easy but, if you look for Electro Music, you won't find it 'cos it no longer exists.

Find Copley Road then call him on 07775 230837 and he'll guide you in. He starts work at 10:30am.

Boy, you better watch those stairs when leaving!

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 12 Aug 25 - 05:04 PM

Aye lad :)

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 12 Aug 25 - 03:48 PM

A real “nut job” then!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 12 Aug 25 - 02:12 PM

Fingers crossed, BWM.

Ray, I hope there'll be none of that going on lol. If the nut slots are too low, I want a new bone nut cut.

-F

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 12 Aug 25 - 12:56 PM

Get him to tell you about baking powder/soda and superglue!

Subject: RE: UK guitar luthier
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Aug 25 - 12:44 PM

Tidy he ain’t! But he’s a decent guy and I’m sure he’ll do a good job.

Subject: UK guitar luthier
From: Fred
Date: 12 Aug 25 - 11:50 AM

So, my Martin D-18 developed a buzz on the A string.

I looked at many Luthier options and went with Stuart Palmer in Doncaster.

Boy that's one cluttered workshop and there was nearly an accident as I almost went headfirst down the steep stairs when leaving!

He said it will be ready for collection next week, so I'll update then with how I rate his work.

Cheers
-F