Review: World music - a white middle class fraud

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Slag
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:19 PM

To put it in the BROADEST category possible, "Huh?" Oh and I like most things about the Universe too.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:08 PM

The Canadian Content regulations of the CRTC (CA Radio Television Commission- hope I have that right, I never remember abbreviations) are on a precentage basis. I think this is what Art meant; 'part of every hour' would mean truncating certain programs and/or compositions.
Of course the regulations are imperfect; certain popular Canadian stars who have made it on the 'world' stage are heard too often and others are ignored by commercial Canadian broadcasters.
The regulations support Canadian content, not just music but talky-talk as well.

The national broadcaster, CBC, has two domestic services, French and English. Primarily Quebec-based, the French service is not listened to by English-speaking Canadians, and vice-versa. Except for the aforementioned 'world' stars, Quebec performers are unknown in commercial broadcasts in English-speaking Canada, and very rarely played in the CBC English broadcasts.
There are other complications.

These comments are largely digression, but those interested in the CRTC regulations will find them here: www.crtc.gc.ca/ENG/LEGAL/Tvregs.htm

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:57 AM

There is a grand new folk centered establishment on the far south side of Chicago (103rd St.) It is called The World Folk Music Company---and their meaning, pretty much, is that they love the music of the world. Whatever. They were nice enough to name their music/concert space for me. I was blown away! What a nice thing to have happen. ------ Mostly, it's the "using" of the ethnic and fusion things by the business---and the seemingly watering down and miseducating those fusions are accomplishing. I mistrust the nature of the change taking place. It seems unnatural to me in that it's not a natural process like the folk tradition. It's cash and hype and advertising driven. It's just so easy for good music to not be heard.

Years ago Canada put the Canadian Content laws in place. Every radio station had to devote a part of ever hour to Canadian artists.

It was obvious to me that it was a tough struggle to fight the money machine that was the U.S. entertainment biz. I fully understood what they were striving to do and I applauded the efforts.

As with the U.S.A. in Iraq, it's hard to resist the onslaught.

Again, I don't know where I'm going with this. Just a few observations from this beautiful summer day here in Peru.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:52 AM

I just submit.....................

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:56 AM

Then there is white middle class Freud. That can be real trouble.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:36 AM

Here is a much more endemic and pernicious white middle class fraud:

One day soon you will meet your one true love. He/she will be everything you desire in another person. You will get married, have 2.5 children, a dog, a cat, a bird, two cars, and at least two large televisions with surround sound. You will buy a nice house with a white picket fence and a perfect lawn and you will live happily ever after there! Your kids will soon grow up to be incredibly successful people and they will do the same as you did, only more so.

I submit that the above white middle class fraud has caused way more trouble to most people than World Music has!

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:11 AM

It would seem that the whole point of this thread is moot to you, then. Which leads inevitably to the question, "Why have you posted in it so often?

In the second post to this thread you asked.

I return to my opening query: what's yer point?

The point of the first post, mine and most of the rest is discussion. Which could - if was any interest to anyone - lead inevitably to the question, - why have you posted in it so often to judge and quiz the motivation of others? The answer to your question is that the answer has no relevence to the discussion and that the number of times anyone posts - is really nobody's business but the posters.

Perhaps it is better and more interesting to discuss the subject of the discussion rather than to post only to judge each others motives for posting?

One of the Word Web definitions of the word MOOT (as in that is a moot question) - is : open to argument or debate.

As you do ask, it was proposed for discussion, argument and debate, in the first that the term World music was a white middle class fraud - I will continue to post to generally support that and to explain my reasons.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 08:55 PM

It's fairly clear that the term "World Music" means something different in the States from what it means in the UK. Fair enough, no reason people over there should fall in line, and vice versa.   But it's as well to be aware of that kind of thing to avoid arguing past each other.

Not that any meaning is static, since inevitably in this kind of thing you have people jumping on and off the bandwagon.

I'd assume that the term would in fact be understood in this country as including quite a range of European musics. Possibly even including some that might otherwise find themselves in a "New Age" record box in some shops. (I've always rather taken it that "New Age" means good for listening to when you're stoned, in which case that could include just about anything...)

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 06:15 PM

It would seem that the whole point of this thread is moot to you, then. Which leads inevitably to the question, "Why have you posted in it so often?"

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 02:26 PM

I find am a lot more interested in making many kinds of music with many kinds of people than either buying or selling any one form of it.

And I find that labels don't really help towards this end at all.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 09:08 AM

Roger, if "in order to sell it." means "so I can find it to buy it," then I agree. Also, labels are handy when you're discussing music generally and you don't want to name all of the specific artists, recordings, instruments, countries of origin, whether plugged in or not, whether bands or individuals, whether it's already traditional or on its way, etc.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 09:01 AM

As the film 'High Fidelity' demonstrated so charmingly!

As I've said previously in this thread, the 'world music' thing is pretty Britcentric. As is WOMAD.

Here is the US, if I walk in to Best Buy or other megastores, the world music bin is just plain bizarre, and contains a lot of New Age sorts of music, with a few ancient and random "international" CDs. Same is largely true at places like Borders and Barnes and Noble, which is where a lot of people go to buy music CDs nowadays. But sometimes Borders/B & N music sections are really good. I've always put that down to someone who works there actually knowing something about the music. And when you go into indie music stores, they usually don't carry the music at all, unless the store is a folk music store specifically. In which case you don't really need a label like 'world music' anyway.

Let's face it. Those who have had a decades long affair with music traditions from around the world used to buy their music by mail. Most of them probably still do, at least partly, because of the convenience and ease of access to such music due to the advent of globalisation and the internet. Their whining about not being able to get the music 'in the old days' (ie pre-globalisation era) had more to do with the paucity of recorded material available, and less to do with the music industry distribution system. Then, there was a phase where the problem became the distribution system. Now there isn't much of a problem with either. The world does keep changing, doesn't it?

What I've never been able to understand is why this handful of Brit music industry types and their lemming followers, keep insisting the whole world must fall into lock step with them, and use their label to describe music made by the rest of us. And if we say 'no thanks, that label doesn't work for us' then we are derisively dismissed by them and mocked as know nothings.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 08:40 AM

Shambles, I don`t see why labels should restrict me from exploring different kinds of music. They are just a rough categorization what kind of music is in that bin. Doesn`t say if I like the artist or not.
Nothing - if not myself - prevents me from looking into other bins. And since it is aimed at a general public (not only real music enthusiasts like us) a bit of orientation (debatable as it can be where best to put things) is not so bad.

At home we can use/develop any system we like for keeping our cds.
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 07:40 AM

"But are we coming close to accepting that the main and only reason music is labelled is in order to sell it"

.. which brings to mind a quote by P.T. Barnum .. "there's a sucker born every minute"

sIx

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 07:34 AM

Just labeling "music to your taste" and "music not to your taste" won`t work. How should every record store owner know what my taste of music and is what is not?

Without these labels you may be exposed to and find more music that is to your taste and the store owner may end up selling more records.

But are we coming close to accepting that the main and only reason music is labelled is in order to sell it?

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 07:22 AM

Labels are good, as well as telling you where to look, they also tell you what to avoid.

eric

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 06:32 AM

Shambles: I don`t see it as a big problem that people have different criteria how to label music. Usually you find out pretty quick in which bins the stuff you are looking for is.

Just labeling "music to your taste" and "music not to your taste" won`t work. How should every record store owner know what my taste of music and is what is not?

I don`t want to live in a state where this could happen.

Best
Ernest
P.S. Think I should have logged out and send this message as "Guest (Vegetable)", but I am too lazy...

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:57 AM

As for saying "how about just labelling it music", that's a bit like going to the greengrocer's and asking him "Can I have a vegetable, please."

The fact that it is a greengrocers (if there still are such things) has narrowed it down a little - at least having made the decision to shop there, you are unlikely to be supplied with pork chops.

The test of the labels we place on anything - be it music or people - is not the cases where it looks to be clear, but the borderline cases. The less labels and sub-divisions we have - the less borderline cases and problems there will be.

Labelling music on national lines (in stores), may appear to make sense but closer examination will show it to be very problematic. But as music is our only international language (and perhaps our only hope) - this is counter-productive and limiting something that has no limits.

Perhaps in the case of music, there is now only the need for two labels - live music or recorded music?

Or even music that is to your taste or music that is not?

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST,Ken J
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:39 AM

Art Thieme above -- sure, if you have a megacity and the population to support a vast record store, the old "International" sections could be delightful. The one I remember from the 1970s was the one in Sam The Record Man in Toronto, which allegedly was Toronto's largest record store.   I only made one trip to the old Rose Records, and I have pretty fond memories of that too.

But my everyday life was in a middling-sized college town, and the "International" bin there, at best, was a collection of boring-looking albums from government-approved art troupes, and schmaltzy middle-of-the -road pop sung in non-English languages. Through a few quirks I'd gotten turned on to Soukous in the early 1980s, and until the World Music marketing concept hit, it simply was not possible to find Soukous albums in my town.

And yes, the world music bins are always quite racist, that's why the Scandinaian fiddle bands get tossed in there. :)

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:30 PM

Take two aspirins and call back in the morning . . . then visit the bluegrass thread where songwriters are getting it in the neck again.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:07 PM

ijust read all this


fuck it..!!

..all us musicians with a love and enthusiam for discovering music

from nations and places all aroud the world


are imperialist exploitive racists..


and probably culture rapists as well..


fuck off inellectual academic theoretical wankers..!!!


stop making my head hurrt !!

when i wAke up tomorrow


i hope i'll forget i ever typed this..



io like farmhouse cider and tunes and rythms from all arounr the fucking planet


yohyu uptight up yer own arese intellectual arguing for the sake of it wankers !

g'night sleep tight

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:25 PM

In the early 1960s I had a day job in a record store that, back then, called itself the 'world's largest record shop'! That was Rose Records in Chicago. We sold LPs---the 12-inch discs. One entire block in length, they had one isle devoted to International Music. Every country had their own bin of records (or several bins of records). The countries were separated alphabetically. And this did seem a rather good way to do it. ---- I'm not sure what I'm getting at, but we did have a system.

Art

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:04 PM

Maybe it's like the aisle in the supermarket that's labeled "International Foods"? The plain English word would be "foreign"; but in certain US subcultures, including commerce & journalism, that word is considered offensive. "International" is the usual euphemism, but perhaps that is too long for the small, mobile signs in record stores.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: If you jump off the train before it crashes and don't break your neck, you'll probably be bitten by a snake. :||

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 08:45 PM

I guess I just don't understand what the problem is looking in a couple of places in a music store for CDs I might be interested in. When I go into a music shop with the intent to find CDs, I do that anyway.

So what is wrong with an international music section? A roots music section? Sections divided by continents? Countries? Regions?

What is the problem with flipping through a couple hundred CDs, anyway? I love doing it. I'm not stupid. I am perfectly capable of asking staff if I need help, or doing more research on my own.

It is supposed to be a labor of love.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: melodeonboy
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 07:05 PM

Well, if I were looking for (black) rap music, I wouldn't look in the world music section of a record shop, whereas if I were looking for (white) Norwegian fiddle music, I definitely would. Er...., so this proves conclusively that "world music" is a racist term!?????

As for saying "how about just labelling it music", that's a bit like going to the greengrocer's and asking him "Can I have a vegetable, please."

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:10 AM

Would there be a better label for a mixture of traditional music (mixture even within the tracks) from all over the world played and recorded in Germany than "World music"?

How about just labelling it music?

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:18 AM

All labels are useful if they help finding what one is looking for. "World music" even can be music from Germany. There are a lot of people from quite different ethnic backgrounds living in our coutry who like to play music. The neighbours who also like playing music come from a different background and know a different music. But they like to play together. So the outcome may be a potpourri of music from different parts of the world played on different instruments originally not made for the music they play now. There's nothing wrong with that if people like it.

So you could hear a Hungarian dance played on an African instrument together with a fiddle and a trumpet, the next piece could be a traditional German song with a half Scandinavian and half near East instrumentation and so on. In some moods I really like that music. Would there be a better label for a mixture of traditional music (mixture even within the tracks) from all over the world played and recorded in Germany than "World music"?

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:54 PM

My pleasure.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:39 PM

Great find, Guest!

Thanks for sharing it.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:58 PM

OK, finally found a fairly recent US mainstream article about use of the term 'world music' and it's current relevance. Just so you know at least some of what I'm talking about, here you are.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:41 PM

"The BBC classification makes more sense."

To the British, maybe. To Americans, no. I'd have to agree that the "Roots World" name is just as bad as 'world music'. Perhaps it is because it attempts to straddle a divide that can't be straddled? I don't know. But it is a ridiculous and meaningless name.

When I say 'roots music' is a serviceable term in a US context, what I mean is, the term 'roots' is used in the US to apply to American traditional, reggae, rock, country, blues, and some other genres. So if you say Cuban roots music, people have an American context to compare it to, though much is lost in the translation.

Yes, in the US we also use that despicable and inaccurate term "international" to describe music festivals where the enough of the acts comes from outside the US. However, we don't find the use of that term in association with music to be all that difficult to suss out the meaning.

WOMAD is a purely British phenomenon & export. Sure they've had token festivals in far flung places that once were familiar to the Empire. But was that because the Sri Lankans were screaming for the Drummers of Burundi to come play for them in their post-tsunami era? It was organized & promoted by the same British and European organizers who organize all the European festivals.

How many Sri Lankan musicians played, where were they put on the bill, and how much were they paid compared to the Drummers of Burundi and the British and American acts? As I recall, they had exactly one Sri Lankan act. In my view, that is tokenism. Especially considering that the first languages of Sri Lanka aren't English, but Sinhalese and Tamil.

WOMAD failed in the US because it wasn't needed (we already had our own festivals) and because it was also in direct competition with already established multi-cultural and/or international music festivals. Sure they blamed the US government, but the real reason WOMAD rarely held festivals in North America is because of lack of interest & ticket sales.

It also failed because word quickly got out that the organizers like Peter Gabriel paid put themselves at the top of the bill & paid themselves on a different scale than the 'world musicians'. When some of the 'world' American acts they tried to sign got wind of that and pulled out, there was WOMAD with egg on their faces.

WOMAD could have done great here, but their arrogance and cultural blinders stood in the way of bringing a great British festival to the US.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:04 PM

'Roots music'? Most of the music marketed under the 'World' label is not foundation music, but contemporary and fusion. A minute part is roots music from a 'certain' culture since all cultures today are mixed. Except in a historical context, 'roots music' is meaningless.
The online "RootsWorld" negates its title by reviewing and discussing music that is the result of "cross-cultural pollination"- true of almost all current music.

Looking at Hawaiian music (trying to get a somewhat isolated region), as 'roots' music we may have a few hulas and chants of pre-European type, but the music quickly developed far beyond that, adding, to the Polynesian-East Asian base, elements first from European and American sources but now containing African and Caribbean influences (e. g., reggae- which is American Indian, European and African 'fusion').

'World Music' is used mostly in Europe, but is frequently heard in American marketing as well, to group "the many genres of non-western music which were previously described as "folk music" or "ethnic music," succinctly described as "music from out there." (Wikipedia, my least favorite reference, but, in this case, usable). The BBC has developed categories and awards for World Music.

Almost none is intrinsically 'roots' music, a form having interest more to music historians than to contemporary musicians, regardless of their ancestry or geographical situation.

The big American marketers use terms like 'international' (with subcategories ,including zydeco, Latin, Mexico, Celtic, Far East and Asia, reggae, etc., some usable and some hopeless). The BBC classification makes more sense.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:25 PM

You forgot to say "in my opinion" Mr. Stephens.

Actually, I've noticed a few people engaging in a perfectly useful conversation with me about racism here.

So perhaps the problem with my anonymity is yours? Has anyone ever suggested to you that refraining from dictating to others what they should think might be a worthwhile endeavor for you?

If you'd like to climb down off the high horse and join me under the bridge here, I'd be happy to pass you the bottle in the bag for a swig or too.

If not, you could keep riding the high horse right on by if the company doesn't suit you. No harm done.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:17 PM

As for Mr Shamble's wholesale condemnation of students on the Newcastle tradmus degree as 'middle-class' with rich parents, he is clearly unaware of one I know who supports herself with three jobs because she has no family to speak of (and not of 'travelling' stock anyway) and receives no financial support whatsoever.

I have of course made such no condemnation of any of these individuals.

My concern is a general one, perhaps not one shared by those who feel such courses to be a good thing but who may not really be too sure why. I tend to think that all higher education should not just be limited to ensuring that students obtain the sort employment advantages they pay for - and which will enable them to later pay back the cost.

Our music has survived pretty well up to now without such things. But I fear that now such things exist I suspect that they will be made to look to be a great success.

At least the future teachers of these subjects coming from these ranks will now have the formal qualifications to enable them to obtain these positions and will no doubt be favoured in the selection process over otherwise perfectly able applicants who may not. For in all truth, apart from this, I can see few other employment opportunities.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fr
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:07 PM

Anonymous accusations of racism never seem to be very helpful in discussions about folk music(or indeed anything else)

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 01:59 PM

Best refrain line/hook I've heard in years:

Artist/Band: Nichols Joe
Lyrics for Song: Tequila Makes Her Clothes Fall Off
Lyrics for Album: III
SHE SAID i'M GOING OUT WITH MY GIRLFRIENDS
MAGUARITAS AT THE HOLIDAY INN
OH MERCY...MY ONLY THOUGHT
WAS TEQUILA MAKES HER CLOTHES FALL OFF

I TOLD HER PUT AN EXTRA LAYER ON
I KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SHE DRINKS PATRON
HER CLOSETS MISSING HALF THE THINGS SHE BOUGHT
TEQUILA MAKES HER CLOTHES FALL OFF

CH....SHE'LL START BY KICKING OUT OF HER SHOES
LOSE AN EARRING IN HER DRINK
LEAVE HER JACKET IN THE BATH ROOM STALL
DROP A CONTACT DOWN THE SINK

THEM PANTYHOSE AIN'T GONNA LAST TOO LONG
IF THE D J PUTS BON JOVI ON
SHE MIGHT COME HOME IN A TABLECLOTH
TEQUILA MAKES HER CLOTHES FALL OFF

SOLO

SHE CAN HANDLE ANY CHAMPAIGNE BRUNCH
BRIDAL SHOWER WITH BACARDI PUNCH
JELLO SHOOTERS FULL OF SMIRNOFF...
BUT TEQUILA MAKES HER CLOTHES FALL OFF

CHORUS

SHE DON'T MEAN NOTHING
SHE'S JUST HAVING FUN
TOMORROW SHE'LL SAY
OH WHAT HAVE I DONE
HER FRIENDS WILL JOKE ABOUT THE STUFF SHE LOST
CAUSE TEQUILA MAKES HER CLOTHES FALL OFF

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 01:31 PM

But the history of their exploitation is very different. Profoundly different.

Some exploitation is racist. Not to admit that is, IMO, equivalent to saying racism doesn't exist in the music industry. Clearly it does, regardless of the current popularity of R & B, hip hop, and rap music.

I also disagree that musicians must be exploited to be financially successful.

I do agree, Ernest, that we do seem to share a lot of musical tastes! I agree, 'tis a good thing.

As I went to click on this thread again, I re-read Penguin Egg's opening post. I can see how people interpreted what they said as being opposed to the music/musicians.

I have no problem with the music and musicians inadvertently caught under or deliberately putting themselves under the 'world music' banner. But I do have a problem with the term 'world music' simply because I see it as a contemporary PC euphemism for 'race music'.

I also find the term to be, in a practical sense, largely irrelevant to both the global music industry and the global music listening public. Not universally, but nearly so. There are exceptions to that, and the main one seems to be among English trad and folk music (in the British sense of folk music) afficionados in Britain. Who aren't a very large percent of the planet's music listening public, hence my claim the term is "nearly universally irrelevant".

I also think, practically speaking, it is a moronic, meaningless term. I find the term 'roots music' to be much more useful. Roots music, to me, simply means music from a certain culture.

The term 'roots music' seems to have evolved to describe more hybrid music, that is, a blend of the contemporary and traditional, whether from one's own or another culture(s).

When you use the term 'roots music' most people in the US 50 and under will know pretty much what you are talking about. Use the term 'world music' and their eyes glass over or they think you are trying to trick them into listening to folk or new age music. It is perceived by people I know as bland, white bread sorts of fluffy stuff.

I know world music is perceived very differently in the UK. We all get that. What we don't accept is that Brittania rules the air waves.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:58 PM

Yeah, everybody gets exploited...one way or another. It is those who can only see exploitation or racism when it's inflicted on them that worry me.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:51 PM

Record companies exploit musicians of colour and caucasian musicians alike. Happens with European/American musical styles also - think of all those folk-punk stuff: traditional music played amplified in a punk style. Like it or not, music and entertainment is an industry now. This may be exploitation, but it is not racism.
And what would happen without that exploitation? Those musicians would not sell their records. Which is especially bad for musicians from poor countries who could not make a living otherwise. If people buy their records, it shows that they value the artists culture.

Are you sure the term world music existed as a label for record sales in the times of those ideological aberrations you described?
I doubt this.
No, it still does not make sense.
As I will be offline now, have a nice evening.
Best
Ernest
P.S.: I think our musical tastes are not that far apart. Nice to know that there is something we can agree upon!

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:50 PM

countess richard states unequivocally that American bluegrass music is NOT world music, but English traditional music IS world music

I didn't say anything about English trad though I do believe that England is, belatedly in comparison to say Scotland and Ireland, joining the world, as borne out by appearances at WOMAD and WOMEX by some of our fniest musicians such as Bellowhead, EAC and Eliza Carthy band. As for bluegrass, I said I could see no need to include this hybrid, commercialised genre with no true sense of roots, place or community it in the 'world' rack in music shops as an eponymous one undoubtedly already existed. Other local or regional American musics such as blues, Cajun, conjunto, Appalachian or musics of immigrant communities clearly would, however, fall under the 'world' banner.

As for Mr Shamble's wholesale condemnation of students on the Newcastle tradmus degree as 'middle-class' with rich parents, he is clearly unaware of one I know who supports herself with three jobs because she has no family to speak of (and not of 'travelling' stock anyway) and receives no financial support whatsoever. She's there because she loves the music and is extremely talented. She may be one of the few who actually makes it out there as a performer as many of the others I know are fully aware that the industry is unlikely to be able to support jobs in it for more than a few. The vast majority of schooleavers nowadays go on to some form of higher education as otherwise they would be unlikely to find any sort of work. The Newcastle students know how fortunate they are to be doing their degrees in a field they love. Doubtless, they'd all be singing, dancing and playing anyway but the important thing is that they are doing it.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:20 PM

No Ernest, they aren't just my assumptions. There are others, especially musicians of color who you would never find posting to this forum, who feel that the term 'world music' has been used to exploit them and their music cultures.

It isn't just music that does this. Nowadays, we have new code words/terms for race that are PC, and used almost exclusively by whites to define people of color. World music is one of those terms.

Don't want to get into citing chapter and verse cut-and-paste wars to "prove" someone is right, and someone is wrong.

I believe we call all learn from just discussing the subject.

'Other' is, to me and many thoughtful people, at the roots of all forms of prejudice, including racism--not excluding it, which is what I think you keep trying to do in this context.

And when it comes to the European constructs of race, we know that the British especially defined certain European cultures, like the Irish and the Germans and modern Greeks as 'other races' that weren't English.

I understand and appreciate this earlier historic categorization of Europe by race is still confounding to some people. But it is still easy to find references to it, even on the internet. Just try googling "Irish race" or "Mediterranean race" or "German race" and you will see what I'm talking about. First, it was sort of regional. Northern Europeans were perceived as being very different from Southern Europeans. Germans and Celts are often thrown together by ancient classical writers. This isn't anything new. But when you don't know the history of race constructs in Europe, it can get pretty confusing. Especially when you try and racially sort people in a contemporary vein, as the term 'world music' attempts to do.

Initially, 'world music' was intended to mean those 'other European races' because there is still an undercurrent in British identity especially, that draws from that historic well that defined southern Europe as a 'Mediterranean race'.

Does that make any sense to you?

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:55 AM

I think these are merely your assumptions. "Other" is something quite different from "racist". As is the word "world". Of course you are free to categorize things by yourself, but for a more general consensus (which i feel is the objective of this discussion) I feel we should have a broader base. So what is everyone else thinking about this?

Greek music is also often found in the world music box - and ancient Greece was one of the cradles of civilisation, by the way.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,chilled out global vibes Guest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:36 AM

these guys are racist !!!!??

http://www.arcmusic.co.uk/index.php?page=about

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:19 AM

In the same way that being Irish has always been 'other' to being English/British or Anglo American.

So it is easy to see how some (not all by any means!) Eastern European and Irish music slipped in to the 'world music' box early on.

Nowadays, it seems to really annoy English trad folk off that Irish trad seems to fit so easily in with the rest of the world, while English trad continues to hammer away in relative obscurity.

And I love English trad. But it isn't the music itself I'm talking about here, though.

I'm talking about race and class assumptions that go into labelling music, when done by white European and American music industry types.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:09 AM

While that might technically make your argument true for some people, it's more an anomaly for me.

Eastern Europe has always been 'other' to Western Europe and Anglo America.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:06 AM

And also: if eastern european music is put into the world music box (as was stated before), the term can`t be racist because those countries are inhabited by white (or better "caucasian")people. Q.E.D.
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:06 AM

No, because I understand the word to mean something musically specific in Yiddish. To me, it simply means secular Jewish music that drew on earlier religious music traditions.

Rather like American gospel music morphing into a multiplicity of descendant secular music genres.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:55 AM

OK, lets take a different example: Would you see the label "Klezmer" as anti-semititic?
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,chilled out global vibesGuest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:54 AM

"W O M A D"


"World Of Music And Dance" ???


.. tried my hardest.. but nope.. cant find any substantial racist
implications in that short bundle of words..

quite the contrary in fact..

always seemed a positive and progessive movement
to confront musical parochrialism and apartheid..


..so now its shortened by lazy feckers in music marketing and journalism

to mere simple


"World Music"

thats racist !!??

feck knows..

bring your own obsessive agendas to the festival picnic blanket
and we'll
all see who's got the biggest!

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:47 AM

No Ernest, in my opinion the circumstances regarding the Irish wouldn't be defined as racism. Racism is rooted in prejudice based upon the color of a cultural group(s)' skin.

Ethnic bigotry is rooted in prejudice based upon culture, though. Just like religious bigotry is rooted in prejudice based upon religion. In the case of the Irish in the 19th century, the bigotry had to do with both their culture and their religion. That makes it somewhat unique, though not really. I consider bigotry against Irish people in 19th century America to have functioned more like anti-Semitism than racism, actually. Because anti-Semitism also has cultural roots, especially for Eastern European Jews.

But I understand it isn't easy to draw these distinctions, and that reasonable people can disagree about it.

Which is always better than spewing angry invectives, like a few posters here are doing because they apparently have issues with my choice to remain anonymous, or because they disagree with my opinion.

They are, of course, free to disagree with me or anyone else here. But they don't need to drag the level of discourse into the gutter, like Big Mick just tried to do.