BS: Man's name or woman's name?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 09:09 AM

McGrath: Oddly, no, usually, since it's not English, it's a transliteration from Hebrew/Yiddish. Pronounciation does.

But usually Abby is the same as Abbie or Avi with a short a and derives from and is the diminutive of Aba.

Aby or Abie is usually a long a and derives from Abrabam (the root of which is Aba, anyway, you'll notice.)

Means "father." As a kid, my daughter got to call me by my first name, therefore. She also got to introduce me as "This is my aba, Aba." She thought that was very funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 07:33 AM

Genie... er, uh, thanks, I guess. How about "Gary" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Genie
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:42 PM

Gervase, I get those SPAM emails about enlarging my penis and keeping it up with Viagra, too -- and my name is Jeanene (a name I've never heard applied to a man)!

Other names I've known to be used for both sexes:
Brooke
Dion
Kim - not uncommon as an Asian male name
Corbett
Cecil
Taylor
Mercedes
Andrea (Usually, Spanish male names end in "o" or "os," and Italian ones in "o," but then there's Andrea Bocelli.)

I've seen both sexes names "Vivian" and "Adrian," (in addition to the variant spellings).


gnu, I've known both men and women named "Cary," as well as "Kerry."


McGrath, you males are so afraid of being called "sissy" or "feminine" that you tend to drop something like a hot potato once it gets known as a "girly" thing. I can't imagine many folks knowingly sticking their sons with historically female names like "Jane," "Linda," "Gloria," "Margaret," "Elizabeth," etc.

("Maria" as a middle name for Catholic boys is a special case, of course.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:44 PM

Thanks to Abbie Hoffman I tend to think of it as male. Does spelling it different make a difference?

I suppose it depends whether you assume it's short for Abraham (one name I don't think has ever been given to a woman, though what do I know?) or Abigail.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:33 PM

How about Abby?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: JudeL
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 04:10 PM

Huw, it may not have been a common name in tyneside but there were several Huw's in my class at school in south wales.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: rock chick
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:53 PM

Dave Bryant what are you saying !! I know i'm Female with a BIG F, can you say the same with a BIG M?

By the way it's wasn't me, same spelling wrong female.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: C-flat
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:59 PM

I wonder what Princess Michael of Kent would have to say on the matter!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

Rock chick:   Hmmm... wouldn't it be a small world indeed if my business correspondence last Friday really had been with you?!? I'll PM the particulars to you right away; please let me know if you are that particular Shelagh! :^)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:11 AM

In light of what brid widder wrote about "Kim", it's as well to point out that the Kim Howells who is drawing critical attention to himself as a minister involved with the PEL issue is in fact male.

(But if you are writing to him to object to his proposed restrictions on live musicians and singers in England and Wales you would best call him Dr Howells anyway, so it doesn't really matter too much.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:43 AM

Perhaps it'd be a bit more of a challenge to find some name that has never been used for a woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Bellowbelle
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:24 AM

I recall being a bit chagrinned to discover that my there was a guy (or two) named Wendy...my name (I'm female). Wendy, Wendell. So, I started using 'Ms' before my name, more often!

Online, there's been one or two instances where I've thought for days or weeks that I was 'talking' to either a man or a woman (judging by name) that turned out to be the other! So, I've just about mastered the art of 'non-genderized conversation' or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:12 AM

I am wondering about the use of "Gary" for females. I am told it is quite common in some parts. However, I know of only one female Gary (MacDonald) and of many males that go by Gary. I'm in southern New Brunswick, Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: rock chick
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 06:35 PM

Could it have been me that sent you the business e-mail? Where are you based?

I quite often start of Dear .... and sign Best regards Shelagh, again depending on the contents of the e-mail.

You can always send me a personal message on this site to confirm whether it is me.

By the way it pronounced the same as Sheila and I'm of the female gender.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 02:37 PM

Declan, I don't believe an ironclad case for Aine/Aithne and Eithne/Enya names being different names, can honestly be made. While there are some pronounciation variations by dialect (as I pointed out), the linguistic proof that these are, without question, two different names, isn't very strong.

I look to how the names are used today. As you pointed out, the Donegal pronounciation of the names is virtually identical. I have encountered some people in Donegal who believe they are, in fact, different names, and others who believe it is more likely they are the same names, which have grown different spellings (and hence, in some regions, different pronounciations) down through the centuries.

There is no end to the amount of misinformation out there on the "meaning" of a name. My understanding of this female name, is that all it's derivatives in Gaelic, are in fact derivatives of the extremely broad use of the name in Indo-European cultures, from Ireland to India. So perhaps we just need to agree to disagree.

BTW, the online source for Gaelic names that I use (it is the best I've found, which actually isn't saying much, as most Gaelic name websites are crap) is this one:

http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/iri.html

It offers the following derivations:

EDNA (1)   f   Irish, Scottish
Pronounced: ED-na
Anglicized form of EITHNE

EITHNE   f   Irish, Scottish
Pronounced: EN-ya, EN-a
Means "kernel" in Gaelic.

ENA   f   Irish
Anglicized form of EITHNE

ENYA   f   Irish
Pronounced: EN-ya
Anglicized form of EITHNE

ETHNA   f   Irish
Anglicized form of EITHNE

ETHNE   f   Irish
Variant of EITHNE

ETNA   f   Irish
Anglicized form of EITHNE

ÁINE   f   Irish
Means "radiance" in Gaelic.

AITHNE   f   Irish
Variant of EITHNE

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 07:55 AM

I'm surprised that Rock Chick hasn't posted on this thread - she's definitely female !

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 07:44 AM

"Wendy" is supposed to have been picked up by Barrie from a little girl who used it as her way of saying "friend". The more cynical among us may see that as a bit nauseating, but what the hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Declan
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 07:36 AM

Eithne and Áine are different names.

It so happens that in Donegal pronounciation they sound similar because the Á souunds like EH in Donegal whereas in other rigions it has more like an AW sound and the th tends to be suppressed in Donegal as well.

An Eithne from Connemara is likely to pronounce her name as in ETHNIC whereas in Donegal it will sound more like the ENYA anglacisation, but it still doesn't mean it is the same name as Áine. The name Eithne or Ethna is generally used in both Irish and English, whereas in english Áine is generally translated to Ann(e).

I always thought Wendy was a form of Gwendoline, but I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: brid widder
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:44 AM

Paul Paula/Pauline... Gerald Geraldine...Robert Roberta... George Georgina... there are lots of those, where the ending changes the gender...

Kim in the Rudyard Kipling book was a boy... all the Kims I know are female. Rudyard... now there's an unusual name... he was named after Rudyard reservoir near Stoke on Trent... where his parents met... not unlike the Beckham babe being Brooklyn. Near Rudyard there's another reservoir called Tittisworth... if they'd done their courting there ....in the same area Stanley Reservoir gave Rudyard's cousin Stanley Baldwin his name.

Speaking of registrars making a cock up... I have a patient called Rosina, an elderly lady who should have been Rose Ena... I think the mistake is better... she doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Schantieman
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:01 AM

Most of those are French - they're rather more relaxed about sex - but strict about getting their genders right!

Then of course there's Wendy, invented by J M Barrie in Peter Pan (but not, so far as I know, used for boys - except on the Rugby field: "you great big Wendy!"

Jessie?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 04:59 AM

Sian -- You beat me to Michael Learned, but I seem to recall that (on The Waltons at least) she was credited as Miss Michael Learned, presumably to point up the fact that she was a woman (which to this adolescent viewer was only too blindingly obvious!)

McGrath -- the most famous Brooklyn in Britain (the Beckham spawn) is a boy.

Gervase -- spammers don't necessarily get it right. Apart from the offers of viagra and penile enhancement I often receive advice on how to increase the size of my breasts -- and frankly, they don't need any outside help!

Remember the singer-songwriter Shawn Phillips? I was working Front Of House on one of his shows back in the '70's and a very grand but confused lady came in expecting to see the actress (and Mrs Richard Harris) Sian Phillips!

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: JennieG
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 04:52 AM

Esme is another...it was used in 16th cent Scotland as a man's name but seems to have transmogrified (love that word!) into a woman's name. My mother had a friend called Esme.
Andre (m) / Andree (f)
Adrian (m) / Adrienne (f)
Vivian, Vyvyan (m) / Vivienne (f)
Wasn't Oscar Wilde's son called Vyvyan?
Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

Frankie? I'd assume that would be a man. Like Christie, or even Patsy if the surname was Irish.

Abbreviations tend to be unisex, especially when they are from the kind of names that have male and female versions, where the same abbreviation is normal for both - Patrick and Patricia become Pat, for example.

Kit is different, because as a man's name it's short for Christopher, and as a woman's it's from Katherine and so forth.

I see noone has come up with any names that started female and ended up more typically seen as male; and I haven't been able to think of any.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: JennyO
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 12:55 PM

"Ayn", as in Ayn Rand, is pronounced "Ine".

In my family, a frequently occurring name was "Meredith", and it was used for boys and girls alike. My cousin (a man) and my niece were both called Meredith.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: HuwG
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 09:22 AM

Oops ! Try this blue clicky for the personal history, rather than the addenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: HuwG
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 08:51 AM

As this post to the Ten obscure facts about yourself thread shows, my parents are from widely differing parts of Britain, and when it came to naming their first-born (me) there was quite a tussle. My mother won, my dad chose my middle name of Lindsay as consolation prize; this was both his first name, and his father's first name before him, back to time immemorial.

Now any Scot will tell you, Lindsay is the family name of the Earls of Crawford (who apparently live in biscuit tins), and any Tynesider will know that it is not unusual as a first name for boys there.

Unfortunately, I found myself growing up in Yorkshire with both first and middle names that were unusable. I have yet to meet an English primary-school teacher who has heard of "Huw" as a first name, in spite of the fact that the BBC has many newsreaders and commentators of that name, while "Hugh" has almost faded from use entirely. And "Lindsay" was quite an exotic handle in a part of the world where "Albert", "Sam" and various Old-Testament first names are still in use. There were occasions when I might have preferred to have been called "Sue".

Rant over. My parents, incidentally, are quite dear people, still living harmoniously (in every sense of the word; they are both members of a large choir), and disappointed only in their wastrel and prodigal eldest son. Boo, hoo !

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:42 AM

I'm a boy my mom's name is John, my pa's name is Ethel - we're normal!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:25 AM

My former sister-in-law is a Sydney. My own name's caused enough confusion over the years - I've lost count of the letters I've had addressed to Ms/Mrs/Miss Gervase, and the telephone calls that ask: "Is she there?"
Spammers generally seem to get it right, though, judging by the number of offers to increase the size of my todger and to send me shedloads of cheap Viagra!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:37 PM

Intersting. Some of these names have such associations. I had a coworker whose wife's name was Myrna Loy Manning. She was named for her aunt, who had been named for the actress Myrna Loy.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:29 PM

"Rikki don't lose that number..."

Sure got sick of that one being sung to me all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 10:10 PM

There is also Riki/Rickie/Ricky

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 08:19 PM

The Spanish usually have gender endings- Tomás, Tomasina, Juan, Juana, etc. We have some, like Frank and Frankie.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: JennieG
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 08:11 PM

Movies made in the 30's seemed to use cross-gender names often...women were called "Sidonie" - probably posher than "Sydney" or "Sidney" but pronounced the same - men tended to be called "Kit". Now I don't know about you, girls, but when my knight on a white charger comes to carry me away from my humdrum life I don't want him to be called "Kit"! But I used to have an Aunt Kitty.
My mother's maiden name was Mavis Davis........
Cheers
JennieG who was named for a movie star (Jennifer) and my mother's cousin (Grace)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 07:51 PM

G'day Q,

All sorts of traditions and prejudices can be applied to names when the law controls them. Down in South Australia there is a lovely instrument maker (concertinas, violins, hardengfels, &c)/silversmith named Pierre Hooft, of Dutch ancestry. His father should have been registered as Pieter ... but he was born while his father was working in Flanders ... and the clerk in the registry was French-speaking - and wrote the name down as Pierre!

Now Pierre is also called that, because, the eldest son takes the father's name ... even when it has been mucked up by a xenophobic Froggie bureaucrat!

Regards,

BobBolton

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:48 PM

There are some names which amount to child cruelty.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:43 PM

Looks like some people think there ought to be a law on names and their use.
A friend from Holland told me that when he was born, names by law had to be biblical. He doubts that this still holds- all sorts of names show up now.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: weepiper
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:47 PM

My real name (Holly) used to be exclusively male but is now exclusively female (like me!).

When I was at university in the Celtic Department there was a girl from Connemara named Eithne and she pronounced it 'eth-ne'. So there GUEST who thinks it's always pronounced the same as Aine.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:25 PM

We had a cat called Strider. Male.

But normally we have given our cats human names of the appropriate Gender. (Well, Strider was a human name too for that matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: brid widder
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:11 PM

I think you're right that Rover would be a male dog... and why does no-one call a cat Rover... or Fido.... cats rove don't they?... and in my experience Tiddles would be very appropriate for most dogs!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:42 AM

Names are rather like songs. You get a whole family of songs made up of variants, which can be very different, but where the ancestry can ve traced back to an earlier form - and then you'll get a song where there's been soem koind of convergence, so it's hard to say which family a song comes from.

With names of course you are dealing maybe with one or two syllables, and inevitablybnthe same combinations of syllables will crop up in different places and times, and sometimes they'll be used for men and sometimes for women.

And people can get quite passionate and indignant about that kind of thing, as if there was a list of names created as Platonic Forms before the world was made, and any messing about the blurred the edges was a kind of blasphemny.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 04:55 AM

Names like Shannon or Sioux must surely be gender unspecific (is that a word?) as the population there must be of both sexes, barring the odd hairdresser. Chris(topher)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Calico
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:25 AM

Actually, I think the skater's name was "Laurence." It was pronounced the French way, and I think she may have been of French-Canadian background, though she skated for the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Calico
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:23 AM

I personally have known three different women named "Michael."

And there was a female figure skater named "Lawrence," who was part of the US skating team that was killed in that plane crash (in 1971?).

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:20 PM

My niece is named Cheyenne.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:19 PM

A woman in an organization I work with at the university is named "Dean," but I don't know if she uses the male name pronunciation or stretches it out as "De-an."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:02 PM

I work with a lady named Sioux.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:51 PM

Thats right. Eithne and Aine are the same name, pronounced the same way, but spelled differently, as I also explained above. Enya is a merely her handler's attempts to anglicize the spelling to make it appear to English speakers in such a way as they might have a stab at actually pronouncing it correctly. This matters a great deal for things like air play on radio. You don't want pronounciation of the name to be an impediment to the music getting played, and to create name recognition.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:43 PM

If you happen to have a copy of the Clannad album, "Fuaim", and you check the credits, you'll see the name Eithne Ní Bhraonáin who played keyboards and contributed vocals. She joined the group that already had her older sister Máire and brothers Pól and Ciarán in it for that album and is pictured on the front cover group portait.

This was Enya, before she went solo and adopted the "new" name.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 06:58 PM

Yer welcome, Mooh!:-) You got me to thinking, though, so I checked. It was the Waltons. I seem to recall she got her name because her dad wanted a boy, bygawd. In that instance it seems selfish of the parent to so name a child, imo.

ttfn,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Mooh
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:43 PM

kat...Kat to the rescue again! I think you're right, simply because of all the limited TV I've watched, I do remember watching the Waltons when I was younger, and maybe that's where I've seen Michael Learned's name. My wife and kids watch the Waltons still I think, though it could be Little House On The Prairie for all I know. Anyway, over the years I've heard people mess up Michael as Mitchell, Michelle, Meekle (or something), without any kind of crosscultural or other excuse.

Thanks, Mooh.